Talk:Systems theory (disambiguation)

Do not archive!

See Talk:Systems theory/Permission for permissions for use of the ISSS logo.

The article was removed to Talk:Systems theory/Draft. See below for an explanation.

First draft

I took a early copy of the Wikipedia article (Most of which had been subsequently deleted by wikipedians in the present article)which was edited and approved by Marcus Schwaninger, Alex Laszlo, Doug Walton and I, and placed it here. Several additions and revisions were then made here by me. Alex Laszlo wrote "Nice, but you left out a word" Matthew Shapiro questions the significance of placing ISSS in the second paragraph. I agree about the ISSS, but want to place how systems began there.

I tend to think that the formulation of systems theory as a authentic science was accomplished by Ludwig von Bertalanffy, generally regarded as the father of General Systems Theory, which systems theory is derived from. Elsewhere, it was mentioned that a general system theory was conceived of by at least two authors prior to von Bertalanffy's contribution. As far as I can tell, almost everyone in ISSS considers Bertalanffy et al, as the founder. Especially in light of his publication of his book General Systems Theory. Thomas Mandel 22:20, 5 June 2007 (CDT)

Subsequently I have removed all previous Wikipedia content, Thomas Mandel 21:54, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

Format

This article is currently looking like a mess and needs reformatting. Yi Zhe Wu 18:03, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

I just started. Thanks for the right thumb. Thomas Mandel 20:48, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

I read on your user page that you are a high school student interested in literature, history and law. what is your experience with "formatting" and can you be more specific about the kind of formatting you are talking about? Can you help me with formatting the lists at the end of the article? I don't know how to do that right. Thomas Mandel 21:16, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

I was talking about the Wiki markup and the section headings, not the substantive formatting of the article. Sorry for the confusion. When I first spotted the article, there was no section headings, but now it is a lot better. For lists, the * (asterisk) is the bullet. I just used this way to format the external link section. Thanks! Yi Zhe Wu 23:02, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

Glad to meet you. I sure can use help with the wiki formatting. I figured the astric opps astrisk, out and made some changes myself. Are you familair with Chinese philosophy. I know it is not a philosophy but you know what I mean. I need to learn how to do references next.Thomas Mandel 01:02, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

Well, I know a little bit of Chinese philosophy, like the basics of Confucianism and such ("confusion"ism :-) ) but not in depth. For references, put <ref>text you want to put in reference</ref> and then in the end of the article add a reference section header and under that insert {{reflist}}. Regards. Yi Zhe Wu 15:33, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Reviewed

Alexander Laszlo: "Nice, except the Glossary entry for Evolutionary Systems Design is listed as Evolutionary Systems (i.e., there's a word missing)."

Bela A. Banathy: "Tom ... NEAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ..... keep me in the loop ...

Jieranai Maier: "Well Congratulations! Great Job Well Done Thomas!"

Wikipedia credit?

An earlier version of the article came from WP, didn't it? Is there some reason we aren't checking the "Content is from Wikipedia?" box? --Larry Sanger 02:44, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

All wikipedia content has been removed/revised with the exception of the lists at the bottom. If necessary I can remove those too. Thomas Mandel 07:48, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

Big issues here

I searched the major electronic resources of a large well-funded university to discover what I could about this topic. I found next to nothing, an article or two about Bertalanffy and an ebook or two on the topic that one can find by searching amazon with the term. Also, the field of engineering apparently has a System theory that differs from this topic. I searched with Margaret Mead Systems Theory and found nothing. I Googled those terms just out of curiosity, too, and found a few things from an advocacy perspective that essentially just make an bald assertion about the matter, plus WP's article and CZ's article mentioning it[1], (this article shows in Google page 2 with what it used to say, "Margaret Mead and Gregory Bateson also had extensive dialogue to discuss transdisciplinary principles of systems theory, such as positive and negative feedback, into the social sciences."). As a student of anthropology and as one with respect for Mead, I find this very troubling, to put it mildly.

The comments about Mead come from Wikipedia. Margaret Mead was elected the president of the Society for General Systems Research.

Thomas Mandel 18:34, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I googled Systems Theory and came up with 241,000,000, picking one of the first, I found this on a nursing website -"Understanding General Systems Theory-This theory was developed by biologist Ludwig von Bertalanffy in 1936. He felt the need for a theory to guide research in several disciplines because he saw striking parallels among them. His hunch was that if multiple disciplines focused their research & theory development efforts, they would be able to identify laws & principles which would apply to many systems. This would allow scholars & scientists to make sense of system charactieristics such as wholeness, differentiation, order, equifinality, progression & others. With a common framework, scientists could better communicate their findings with each other & build upon each other's work. He believed that over time, what was discovered would come to be applicable to life in general."

Much of science has come to use the principles of a system. Complementarity in quantum physics. The science of complexity is derived from complex systems, involving the usage of computers. Psychology uses family theory which is systems based. Even literature is studied as a system. The human body is one system after another, from DNA up to consciousness. Although the science of consciousness has to decide what consciousness is. Management uses systems thinking- interactive management for example. Even electromechanics is replete with systems. Gaia is a ecosystem and ecosystem is a very good example of a system. All of these and more are systems having oparts which worktogether in mutual interrelationships and in the process, create new systems. THe value of systems theory, Banathy tells us, is that we cannot know characteristics of the whole by a study of te isolated parts. This is new to science (reductionism) which reduced the study to a single object. And even if we try to put these parts back together. we still will not find those new properties. Gell Mann, one of the founders of complexity theory says

Today the network of relationships linking the human race to itself and to the rest of the biosphere is so complex that all aspects affect all others to an extraordinary degree. Someone should be studying the whole system, however crudely that has to be done, because no gluing together of partial studies of a complex nonlinear system can give a good idea of the behavoir of the whole." MURRAY GELL-MANN Thomas Mandel 20:01, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I'd be inclined to begin an article about Systems Theory something like this:

Systems theory refers to a body of thought and way of thinking held among a small minority of thinkers across various disciplines. Systems theory primarily traces itself to a work by biologist Ludwig von Bertalanffy, General System Theory, in which he sought to bring under one philosophical heading his thoughts about organismic structures. Bertalanffy argued [fill in core argument]. Adherents of system theory have gone on to apply Bertalanffy's thought to [fill in details]. Adherents today often find home for their ideas within the movement's organizing body, the International Society for the System Sciences (ISSS)....

Just a quick sketch, of course, but it gets across the gist of the idea. As this article reads now, it seems to scream of advocacy with CZ as its platform. I do not at all think this represents a neutral, scholarly encyclopedia article about the topic. It actually reminds me almost "to the T" of what CZ once had at Heterodox economics.

Stephen Ewen 04:46, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Do you mean that you actually read the Wikipedia article???? Mead is not mentioned in that fashion in our article. Doesn't the very partial list of books referenced in the further reading section count? Laszlo alone has written over eighty books. Your introduction is biased with your opinions. Does it matter if those opinions are right or wrong? All science at one time was held by a minority. The "home" of the movement is the IFSR with numerious members one of which is ISSS with thirty chapters arond the world. Systemics is used in all fields, and it is sad that those who have preempted our core principles choose not to give credit where credit is due. An encyclopedia is supposed to inform the reader and in this case well-funded Universities. Do you have access to an expert in systems theory?

What you are defining is what we call the systems movement. Here Klir writes in the International Encyclopedia of Systems and Cybernetics. p 361, Systems Movement - "A loose assciation of worldwide scale of people from different disciplines of science, engineering. philosophy and other areas, who share a common interest in ideas (concepts, principles, methods,, etc.,that are applicable to all systems and that, consequencly transcend the boundaries of traditional science.

That how we write an encyclopedia.

In short, your lack of knowledge about the subject really should not be an influence in the article, don't you think? It is extremely difficult to argue a point with someone who needs to be instructed about every aspect of what is being said. Isn't the goal to describe what is out there rather than what we happen to think what is out there? And, am I stepping out of bounds by making these arguments?

"The International Encyclopedia of Systems and Cybernetics" is described as "a sort of self-referential work of reference".[2] I think this screams that my suggested intro and earlier comments are right on mark. I suggest you may have significant difficulty determining advocacy from neutrality and what would comprise a balanced encyclopedia article in this case. Stephen Ewen 14:29, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Some comments

See Principia Cybernetica Web. I believe systems theory and systems science are synonymous, both being an outgrowth of cybernetics, and more of an intellectual movement than anything else. That's not necessarily bad, but my personal opinion is that what goes under the aegis of systems theory does not (yet, anyway) have that much to contribute to science, but it may way well have had an important effect in inspiring people to pursue particular lines of research. The opening paragraph of the web page is worth quoting:

Cybernetics and Systems Science (also: "(General) Systems Theory" or "Systems Research") constitute a somewhat fuzzily defined academic domain, that touches virtually all traditional disciplines, from mathematics, technology and biology to philosophy and the social sciences. It is more specifically related to the recently developing "sciences of complexity", including AI, neural networks, dynamical systems, chaos, and complex adaptive systems. Its history dates back to the 1940's and 1950's when thinkers such as Wiener, von Bertalanffy, Ashby and von Foerster founded the domain through a series of interdisciplinary meetings.

I think that about sums it up. Today, cybernetics is not terribly fashionable, though I think AI is a bit on the rebound, robotics is strong, as is cognitive science. I've never been impressed by attempts make sweeping generalizations based on what we know about complexity and chaos in mathematics, but talk of chaos and complexity (and they are not the same thing) that never tries to even define these basic concepts is inherently suspect, in my opinion. Greg Woodhouse 15:34, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Systems theory is not an outgrowth of Cybernetics. Cybernetics, which emerged at about the same time as systems theory, is a particular type of system, system is a fruit, cybernetics is an apple. Apple is fruit, fruit is not just an apple.

Merrilee H. Salmon, "What Can Systems Theory Do for Archaeology?" American Antiquity, 1978 Society for American Archaeology.

The article says "Systems Theory is indiscriminately applied to what she calls "General Systems Theory" (what this article is about) and "Mathematical Systems Theory". She asks whether either have anything to offer the field of archeology and concludes "neither has much to offer archeology".

She goes on the say, "general Systems theory is not a genuine theory. it has established no general principles that are applicable to all systems [but is] a program to develop such a theory [that has] become enmeshed in basic difficulties at such a basic level that it has never really gotten off the ground."

Stephen Ewen 15:47, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Just to be clear, all of my posts here are me acting as an author. Stephen Ewen 16:39, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Merilee Salmon is a distinguished philosopher, the author of a standard logic text, and wife of Wesley Salmon, the famous philosopher of science. Still, this is just her opinion, even if it is a very common one. --Larry Sanger 16:42, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Clarify about Mead: I above stated, "I searched with Margaret Mead Systems Theory and found nothing." I did find hits and such, correlating association with adherence. But given her prolific pen, one would expect to find things from her own pen on the matter. I've not been able to find such. Stephen Ewen 16:44, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

If you would have looked at the references I provided you would have noticed that Margaret Mead was President of the Society for General Systems Research 1972 - 1973.[3] Thomas Mandel 19:09, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I've seen that repeated over and over and over again. All it necessarily means is that Margaret Mead was President of the Society for General Systems Research 1972-1973. The question is not what someone infers from the association, or makes a correlation to, but what did Mead say about it. Stephen Ewen 20:36, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I think it's worth noting that there are a lot of ideas here with which I think mathematicians and computer scientists would generally be sympathetic. In broad strokes, if we suppose that systems (examples of which are electronic switches, competing populations of fish, or tropical storms) then those systems will typically involve self-reference (or, poetically, non-linearity) which leads, in turn, to emergent phenomena (turbulence, population spikes) that are difficult to predict or understand because tiny variations (say adding another fish) can lead to large scale changes (these are called bifurcations). Chaos (a concept that is often not clearly defined) is a situation where this type of sensititivity to initial conditions become "typical". In mathematics, these are all terms that have a precise meaning, and chaotic (or just nonlinear) systems can be studied systematically. What is going on here is that a broad observation, namely that phenomena that we would consider "interesting" and "non-trivial" all, at bottom, owe their existence to nonlinear or self-referential structures. Now, obviously, this is not something that can be objectively tested (or even precisely stated!) but is a kind of "theme" or "guiding principle" with which I think many people are sympathetic, whether they would accept the more radical claims of system theory or not. So, in a certain sense, I think this whole discussion misses the point. Systems theory itself may not be widely accepted as a useful way of thinking about the world, but it does represent one (mainly historical, in my opinion) expression of an intellectual current that is very real, and one that has led to fundamental insights in mathematics and the sciences. Greg Woodhouse 17:10, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

First of all "systematically" is not one of the definition of system we use to describe what a system does. If you want to talk mathematics, the closest is category theory. I am not saying that an electronic switch is not a system, but it isn't an example we would use to explain it to someone else. Thomas Mandel 19:21, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Greg, according to the article "What Can Systems Theory Do for Archaeology?" I posted earlier, "Systems Theory is indiscriminately applied to what she calls "General Systems Theory" and "Mathematical Systems Theory". It seems the article is muddling the two. Stephen Ewen 17:52, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I understand that. I suppose that, to me, population biology, storm behavior and (say) visual perception are rather different areas of research. I don't think I could even give you a definition of general systems theory. I just think of it as the idea that the "same" (whatever that means in this context) principles that are used in these specific disciplines ought to apply (in some unspecified way) to arbitrary systems (again, whatever that means). My intent is not to offer an apologetic for systems theory as to offer a little background, and suggest why some people may find the topic worth writing about. I do generally agree with the criticisms you cite. But, on the other hand, it seems to me that many of the most interesting and successful scientific theories started out by applying ideas to a domain where they don't seem to belong. So, in that sense, I perhaps try to reserve judgment a bit longer. Returning to the matter at hand, I think the trend in science today is toward a kind of pragmatic minimalism: a neuroscientist may develop mathematical models for systems consisting of a single (or very few) neurons, or an epidemiologist may look at highly simplified models of disease transmission. Looking for a grand synthesis right off the bat, without really having a clear understanding of simple systems doesn't strike me as a very useful approach. Greg Woodhouse 19:13, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

See [4]Thomas Mandel 23:51, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Article checklist

Could someone please fill out the article checklist on this article. We need to determine editorship of this article. --Matt Innis (Talk) 14:32, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Considering the founder's background, and in lieu of anything broader, I think Biology and Philosophy. --Larry Sanger 14:45, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I would drop Biology. At most, it is one area where these ideas have been applied, and not in any way fundamental to the discipline itself. This may seem odd, but you might consider adding History. What else would you use as a category for a (now somewhat dated) intellectual movement? Greg Woodhouse 15:39, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Not so sure that "whole greater that the sum of the parts"

can be described as a "dated intellectual ... " Thomas Mandel 19:09, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Logo and link to author's site

This graphic

wrap

was created by Thomas Mandel, and as such, to be consistent with the spirit (if not the letter) of our Policy on Self-Promotion, it can be added to the article only by someone other than Mr. Mandel. --Larry Sanger 20:21, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

For the same reason (regarding self-promotion), I've removed this link:

• International Society for the System Sciences [5]

it will have to be someone other than Mr. Mandel to add the link. --Larry Sanger 20:24, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

But the image itself does not indicate or promote its origin or author. Yi Zhe Wu 20:36, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

The image file page does. --Larry Sanger 21:02, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

It would be very nice and friendly if someone would add the graphic. Thomas Mandel 21:07, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I have no desire to promote myself in any way. I do not even mention myself in my own work. (It is a tradition for an artist to sign his work.)I mention my work only for your information. If I were promoting myself/beliefs, I would have said that systems science is Western Zen. Thomas Mandel 20:59, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Isn't "self-promotion" unwarranted?

1) ISSS (renamed) is the first systems society.

2) It has been claimed that the first paragraph is self-promoting. It reads

Systems theory is a transdisciplinary and multiperspectual scientific inquiry that studies structure and properties of systems in terms of their relationships. It is through these mutually interactive relationships that new properties of the whole emerge. Of considerable significance to system researchers, these new properties of the whole cannot be found in the isolated elements. An example -- the wetness of H2O. The domains of system philosophy, methodology and application complement this science. The field of scientific inquiry is known as system science.

I really need help determining exactly what in the paragraph promotes anything. From my perspective, they are all facts which those in our field take as common knowledge. Thomas Mandel 20:54, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

The answer is simple: if those are the facts, then someone else who knows them will have no problem adding them in. The policy is the policy. --Larry Sanger 20:59, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I don't understand. Are you saying that I cannot add anything to the article because I am someone who works with the information? There is no reference to any marketable organization in the first paragraphThomas Mandel 21:08, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

It sounds like you are telling me that I cannot author this article because I know what I am writing about. Thomas Mandel 21:13, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

No, obviously the ground for the objection is that as webmaster for the ISSS, you are associated with them. The policy, therefore, applies. The solution is simple. You merely have to persuade someone to add the information back into the article for you. If the ISSS is as important as you say it is, this should be easy to do. Over and out. --Larry Sanger 21:14, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Article neutrality problem

Thomas, I'm sorry to have to tell you that in its present form, the article is an uncritical and biased presentation of a theory that is very far from being mainstream science. Therefore, I have moved the article to Talk:Systems theory/Draft. We very much welcome a good, neutral article about this subject. An article that is consistent with our Neutrality Policy will make two radical improvements over the article in its present form.

(1) It will be rewritten so that the conclusions of Systems Theory are not presented as if they were fact. To take just one example:

The basic principles found in all systems to some degree operate by the principle of wholeness, the principle of relationship, the principle of emergence, the principle of hierarchy, the principle of feedback and the principle of mutual interaction. "Purpose, process, interaction, integration, and emergence are salient markers of understanding systems", Banathy writes.

To say this without qualification is to say that it is known, according to CZ, that "the basic principles...operate by the principle of wholeness..."

(2) The article will fully state objections and/or the general reception that Systems Theory has received by the general scientific community. --Larry Sanger 21:14, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Well I knew/hoped we could be reasonable. Thank you very much for the draft status, I wanted that myself all along. You should put every brand new article into the draft status until it is good enough to move to actual article *But not approved yet)

I am not sure how we can state a philosophical principle as a fact. Are you saying that our facts should be presented as "Systemists believe/think/assume/that parts make up a whole if they work together" Something like that? Facts then would only be something like "it is ten o'clock somewhere." I need to understand your hidden meanings here.

As far as reception, this will be interesting. Do you mean those who are aware of systems theory? Or do you mean ALL of the general scientific community including those who never heard of systemics? Hmmm, do you write that most scientists do not study or work with quantum physics? Anyway, I don't know about the general community, but I do know what our critics have written.

We even have a paper on the subject mentioned in our encyclopedia.

Now, I understand that the article has to be moved by someone else. I assume that you wish this to be someone who knows what he is doing. Will someone who teaches the Phd's do?

You're tough Larry, but you have integrity, at least in the end. It's going to be tough for me but it can be done. It's just that I am very slow. But in the end I always come through. Thank (insert favorite word here) for that. Thomas Mandel 22:56, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

Synchronicity

That fast, I got this letter, written to the listserv sponsored by a journal for the scientific study of consciousness, which is here the opinion of one scientist. I hope I am doing this right. This is just one opinion, granted, but it is a start. Thomas Mandel 23:22, 11 June 2007 (CDT)