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| ==Resynchronizing== | | ==Archived some heat, and starting afresh== |
| I have taken the article back to before the numerous large recent changes started. There's certainly no reason there cannot be changes. The changed text is in [[Internet/Alternate article]].
| | There's certainly room to improve this article. Arguments that were getting a bit far afield of the article are still available in Archive 1. |
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| It is my understanding, Dan, that the lede (i.e., before the first heading) is generally acceptable. You have questions about having the history, or as much of it, here. I can discuss why I believe it should be, but it may be shortened.
| | I should note that I did not create this article, although I made some corrections, especially in the history. It certainly could flow better from the lede, into something other than development, and continue. |
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| Some of the services you have in mind may be in the article [[convergence of communications]], which could be merged here in whole or part. Services that Peter mentioned, such as newsgroups, are, I think, there, but certainly could be added.
| | Several other articles either can be linked, or even have text moved here. [[Convergence of communications]] is a very broad look at applications. [[Internet Protocol Suite]] has major infrastructure and a certain amount on architecture. There are numerous articles on IP/IPv4/IPv6, IP addressing, routing, and routing protocols. |
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| It is my ruling that Comer is not as authoritative as RFCs, and I'm simply not familiar with the second book that was cited. Let's work to build from what is here, not replace it ''en masse''. Let's make links to [[Internet Protocol Suite]], which perhaps should become more of an architectural model, and be sure that when there is a wikilink to a protocol, and there is an article extant on that protocol, we don't get a redlink. Many of the redlinks came from writing such things as [[Simple Network Management Protocol (SNMP)]] rather than [[Simple Network Management Protocol]], or not having the precise name of a protocol such as UDP.
| | What should be where? How can we improve what is here? Is anything here in error? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 18:39, 22 September 2009 (UTC) |
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| [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 04:57, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
| | == Explanation of history == |
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| : Howard. Before you rolled back the article text, I stated my position why I think that is a bad idea in a new section on this talk page. Would you respond to that? [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 05:01, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
| | This page was the first version of "Internet", then moved to "[[Development of internet]]". |
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| ::I have done so. My rollback, however, is largely procedural -- CZ customs do not approve of major unilateral rewrites without discussion, especially when a workgroup Editor is available for active participation.
| | I have moved the newly created page "Internet" to [[Internetworking]] thereby replacing a ''copy'' of the page. |
| | The corresponding discussion can be found in [[/Archive 1]], but since it has been copied instead of moved, |
| | the history can be found on this talk page. |
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| ::Now, within those customs and rules, if we agree on the need to change the earlier articles, we will then change the article. We do not do bold-rewrite-revert as does WP. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 05:09, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
| | I have moved back the first version, and the associated talk page to [[/Archive 2]] |
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| == Why did you delete most of the text in the Internet architecture section? ==
| | [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 22:33, 23 September 2009 (UTC) |
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| Howard,
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| Most of the material in the Internet architecture section is deleted. Why did you do that? [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 17:34, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
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| : Hmm. This is a mystery. I just looked at the history of the article and it doesn't look like Howard deleted anything. And yet, the text is now missing. I will contact CZ admins for some help with this. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 17:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
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| ::See my note on Matt's talk page. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 18:19, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
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| == Newsgroups ==
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| In the first paragraph, newsgroups/usenet should be mentioned along with email and ftp.
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| (I don't add it myself, so that noone can claim I added content in case of an approval.)
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| [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 01:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC) | |
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| :Done. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 03:38, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
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| == Need to expand section on history of the Internet ==
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| In some side conversations, it is noted that an article on the Internet would benefit from a discussion of its history. This would include a discussion of the technologies that led up to the internet as well as a discussion of the technologies used currently. This is a reasonable point and deserves discussion. So, let me open the discussion in this section. Those who have an opinion on this issue are hereby invited to provide it here. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 04:31, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
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| : I will start this conversation by providing my view. I would expect that an article named '''Internet''' would provide a broad overview of the subject. This includes its history, its structure and its uses. I think the article would benefit from an expansion of the history section, but I think the level of detail in the article [[Development of the Internet]] is inappropriate for a high-level article. So, my position is those who are interested in expanding the history section should summarize the material in the [[Development of the Internet]] article and place that summary in the history section of the Internet article. Some have suggested rolling back the Internet article to the old material (which was renamed [[Development of the Internet]]). I am opposed to this because it misrepresents the meaning of the article title (i.e., '''Internet'''). If an article with the title '''Jet Planes''' contained only a detailed description of their history and no description of their design and use, I would say the article is misnamed. By the same argument, I think an article titled '''Internet''' that only discusses its development is misnamed. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 04:48, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
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| :: Well, while composing the above text, Howard decided to rollback the article to the old text. As I state above, I am opposed to this. I won't get into an edit war with Howard, because that wouldn't accomplish anything. I think the ball is now in Howard's court to explain his action. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 04:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
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| :::My action, as a Computers Workgroup Editor, was to put the text back to a version level before large rewrites were made without discussion. This is more basic than what your view or my view is of the definition of the Internet; it has to do with CZ procedure about large edits without consensus.
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| :::I am willing to ''discuss'' changes in the development section, perhaps better linking it to the material that is in the lede and perhaps moving some of it, but I am not willing to start with an essentially new article and new definition of the Internet and the scope of the Internet article. If you want to make arguments on ''changing'' what was there, in a conversational way on the talk page, I'll be happy to do so — although I don't agree to agree with rewrite of the initial paragraphs. If an architecture article is appropriate, fine -- I would note that I was an IETF reviewer of some of the draft architecture documents, as well as being directly involved in OSI architecture; this is not just a side area of my being a Computers editor as a compiler expert, but as a specialist in network architecture and network architecture standards. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 05:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
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| :::: You still have not addressed the point I made. I am happy to follow CZ procedures and perhaps I violated some of these unknowingly. Let me restate my position. An article titled '''Internet''' is misnamed if all it does is cover the history of its development. That material is better named something like '''Development of the Internet''', which is why I moved it there (I thought with your agreement, but it seems I was mistaken). So, at the very least a great deal of the material in the rolled back version of the article should be moved somewhere else. The current material is too detailed for an overview article. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 05:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
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| :::::Let me ask you a serious question: what do you consider the starting date of the Internet in this article?
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| :::::In my mind, it does not only cover the history, certainly not in the introduction. I have a suspicion, however, that [[convergence of communications]] may be what you have in mind. Just as a guess, you tend to think more Internet applications and I tend to think more from an ISP standpoint.
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| :::::Let's start systematically. Do you have any problem with the 3-4 paragraphs before the first heading? Next, might we introduce a new next section that speaks of motivations and ''broad'' architectural assumptions (e.g., end-to-end principle) that might substitute for a more detailed development? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 05:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
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| == Changed name of the Internet subgroup to the Internetworking subgroup ==
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| For those who are intested, I have changed the name of the Internet subgroup to the Internetworking subgroup. I have copied the text from [[Internet/Alternate_article]] to the Internetworking [[Internetworking |subgroup main article page]]. This allows us to continue our discussions of the Internet article without those discussions becoming entangled with discussion of the subgroup formation. I did this because I created this subgroup and am currently its only member. I have not yet edited the main article to reflect its title, but will do that in the next few days. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 05:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
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Archived some heat, and starting afresh
There's certainly room to improve this article. Arguments that were getting a bit far afield of the article are still available in Archive 1.
I should note that I did not create this article, although I made some corrections, especially in the history. It certainly could flow better from the lede, into something other than development, and continue.
Several other articles either can be linked, or even have text moved here. Convergence of communications is a very broad look at applications. Internet Protocol Suite has major infrastructure and a certain amount on architecture. There are numerous articles on IP/IPv4/IPv6, IP addressing, routing, and routing protocols.
What should be where? How can we improve what is here? Is anything here in error? Howard C. Berkowitz 18:39, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
Explanation of history
This page was the first version of "Internet", then moved to "Development of internet".
I have moved the newly created page "Internet" to Internetworking thereby replacing a copy of the page.
The corresponding discussion can be found in /Archive 1, but since it has been copied instead of moved,
the history can be found on this talk page.
I have moved back the first version, and the associated talk page to /Archive 2
Peter Schmitt 22:33, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
