Talk:Mourning dove

the title of the article should be Mourning dove

Hi, Mary, as I said yesterday on the Talk page of Wild Turkey, the CZ convention is not to use capital letters in the name of an article unless the word itself is a proper noun. Therefore the Wild Turkey article should be called Wild turkey and this article should be called Mourning dove. As for Russian Blue, I'm not sure -- it could probably be argued either way. But for any future articles with more than one word, please remember to follow our conventions. Thanks! Hayford Peirce 00:34, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure. Isn't dove part of the proper name of this bird? While I am sure that you would type dove when talking about the species, would you type this particular bird as a mourning dove or a Mourning Dove or a Mourning dove. I'm thinking that it's Mourning Dove. Using mourning dove would suggest that the bird is actually mourning. Mourning dove would suggest that the name of the dove was Mourning. That only leaves Mourning Dove. Good question. D. Matt Innis 03:25, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

This one isn't even close, nor is the wild turkey one. Only *proper* names are in caps. If you look in the 11th edition of the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary it says, "mourning dove is a kind of American dove." And there's no difference between "wild turkey" and "wild rice", for instance. Both of them have lower case. Just like "mountain lion", "prairie dog", and anything else like that. Trust me on this -- this is just the way it is. I *will* admit that I'm not 100% sure about Russian Blue, but I *am* sure about these two items. (PS -- even if it's a species, unless it's a *scientific* name, it *still* isn't in Caps. "Dove", for instance, is just dove, just as lion or tiger or elephant or dog is.) Hayford Peirce 03:40, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

PPS -- take a look at Dog and Cat -- do you see any caps there? This whole article about mourning doves will have to lower-case every instance of "Mourning dove" in the text -- it simply isn't correct. Hayford Peirce 03:44, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Just took a quick look at Dog, I see Grey Wolf and Dandie Dinmont Terrier just to name a couple. I agree wolf would be lower case, but Grey Wolf is the proper name, just as Mourning Dove is a the proper name for a type of dove. And I do trust you. D. Matt Innis 03:57, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

The editors of M-W #11 do not agree with you about "mourning dove" nor "gray wolf" (not grey wolf) nor even "Dandie Dimont terrier" -- in the last case the first two words are in caps because they are derived from a proper name. "terrier", however, is lower-case. Plus look up these words in real sources -- you will find that the names of animals are NOT capitalized unless there is a proper noun in the name, such as "African elephant" or "Asian elephant." I didn't look all through the Dog article, so I missed the examples you mentioned -- all it means is that they are *wrong*. Did you count how many times "dog" was not capitalized, nor "cat", nor the names of any other animals in other articles? If "Mourning dove" was named after someone named "Jean-Claude Mourning", then I agree that it should be "Mourning dove". Since this is *not* the case, it is, correctly, "mourning dove". If you don't believe *me*, how about asking Ro for his judgment on this? I will certainly abide by any ruling he makes.... Hayford Peirce 04:30, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Hayford, do you have any designs on soiled dove? Howard C. Berkowitz 04:39, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Mourning Dove is a proper name of a type of dove. There are many kinds of doves, not just Mourning Doves, hence the upcase. Here's some examples of how this was used:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mourning_Dove
• http://www.fws.gov/digitalmedia/cdm4/results.php?CISOBOX2=Mourning+Dove&ddlMediaFormat=JPG&CISOROOT=all&CISORESTMP=%2Fcdm4%2Fresults.php&CISOVIEWTMP=%2Fcdm4%2Fitem_viewer.php&CISOMODE=thumb&CISOGRID=thumbnail%2CA%2C1%3Btitle%2CA%2C1%3Bsubjec%2CA%2C0%3Bdescri%2C200%2C0%3Bnone%2CA%2C0%3B20%3Btitle%3B&CISOBIB=title%2CA%2C1%2CN%3Bsubjec%2CA%2C0%2CN%3Bdescri%2C200%2C0%2CN%3Bdate%2CA%2C0%2CN%3B20&CISOTHUMB=20+%284x5%29%3Brelevancy%2Cnone%2Cnone%2Cnone%2Cnone&CISOFIELD2=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOOP2=all&CISOFIELD1=format&CISOOP1=any&CISOBOX1=JPG+&CISOFIELD3=subjec&CISOOP3=none&CISOBOX3=&CISOFIELD4=subjec&CISOOP4=none&CISOBOX4=&History=on&s8fid=24012815031252
• http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Mourning_Dove/id
• http://www.birds.cornell.edu/BOW/moudov/
• http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/mourning_dove.htm

As to the turkey article you had to upcase Wild as it was the start of a title. You could and should write wild turkey in later references as it is not a proper name for a turkey. Now if it was a Rhode Island Red turkey (made the name up here) then that's how it would be written. The same could be written for the domestic turkey. Upcase Domestic turkey in the title and so forth. Mary Ash 05:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. There could be arguments both ways here; I'm not taking a strong position, although I'd write "Siamese cat" but "Russian Blue".

Why do I sigh? The very first example you give in support of your position is a Wikipedia link. You simply seem unwilling to accept that Wikipedia is not a source, nor other Wikis without real name policies. It seems as if you have very selective hearing about things that don't meet your preconceptions of how CZ should work.

Also, the usual courteous way to give references/counterarguments is to quote the relevant text, and then give a URL. It's not fair to expect the reader to go and figure out what you have in mind in an article -- as with the multiple references to the John Mack Institute, most of which I was able to give a quite specific bibliographic reference.

No, I don't suppose I'm being all cuddly and warm. So be it. Howard C. Berkowitz 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Awww shucks Howard getting all friendly now :-) ? Sorry about the WP reference but it was handy. As to the Russian Blue. It is a proper name of a cat.Mary Ash 06:20, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but it would be "Russian Blue cat." My late Chatterley may not have had a pedigree, but considered herself the Czarina, and would pose whenever a camera was pointed in her direction.

In any event, "The Naming of Cats is a Difficult Matter," more so than that of hawks and doves. Personally, in Washington, I preferred the wise owls.Howard C. Berkowitz 06:25, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Collins English Dictionary 1979 list mourning dove -- lowercase twice. Thus both AE and BE dictionaries agree on this and the case clear. --Peter Schmitt 08:57, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

An internet search is quite convenient, Mary. I often use it myself to check spelling or language, but one has to be very careful and aware that internet hits do not prove anything. Incorrect usage spreads quickly. Thus the links you give show why it was reasonable for you to create the page with an uppercase title. (Incidently, have you noticed that two pictures in the second link use "dove"?) But if a language issue has to be settled then it is not the number of hits that counts, but it are the major (trusted) dictionaries that decide. --Peter Schmitt 09:50, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

from the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 6th edition (2007): mourning dove a common grey-brown N. American pigeon, Zenaida macroura, with a plaintive call. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I can see both sides. Obviously this is not the place to settle title issues for similar decisions. I'd say go ahead and change the name and then, if the issue re-occurrs, bring it to the new Editorial Council for something in the policy that all of us southerners can follow. After all, Mourning Dove is a southern delicacy :) D. Matt Innis 12:32, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Text here was removed by the Constabulary on grounds that it is needlessly inflammatory. (The author may replace this template with an edited version of the original remarks.) D. Matt Innis 15:47, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Matt, I will simply say that I tried to make a non-inflammatory response to what may have been an inflammatory post, explaining some of the realities of statistics. I believe, in your zeal to stop the inflammatory, you also deleted the informative, and I protest. Howard C. Berkowitz 16:24, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that {{inflammatory}} is not the best choice, but we don't have a {{this doesn't belong here and it will only cause more strife}} template. I tend to think it was only going to lead nowhere. I wouldn't mid it as much if it were on the forum. D. Matt Innis 16:39, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yikes! My intent was not to be inflammatory. I was only trying to express there are many ways to see and describe something. I apologize for my misunderstood post. Mary Ash 16:40, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Again, it's just not the place. The forum is where metadiscussions should be taken. Although, your talk page is also a choice if you don't expect it to get too controversial. D. Matt Innis 16:43, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid I started this

...by typing 'Mourning Dove' for the reasons Matt mentioned: I thought it was a proper name. So blame me.

I also have to agree with Howard: Siamese cat but Golden Retriever.

The reason for all the capitals is that breed names are proper names, since the animal is actually officially (and usually legally) named that. Trouble is, that changes from country to country. Convention also plays a part.

Siamese cat, but British Shorthair, not to be confused with a British short-haired cat. Or a British short haired cat. Russian Blue. For reasons known best to themselves.

You think you guys can argue? You should hear dog breeders get going about Akita, Akita Inu, Akita-ken, Japanese Akita, or Akita Inu Dog. It's basically a Japanese dog dog or dog from Akita.

With respect to breed names, I suggest we use the official breed name of the registering breed club in the country of origin. We will still have problems even with that. We will simply have to use politeness and good sense. Aleta Curry 01:36, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Ah, good to know that great minds think alike, albeit occasionally skewed :-) D. Matt Innis 01:41, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Mr. Clark observes, "which part of meow do you fail to understand?" (He's much more himself since, after two oncologists and three pharmacists, he's on the right pain medication such that he doesn't hurt.) Howard C. Berkowitz 01:46, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

You're the expert, Aleta, but I must say I find it strange to think of a breed as a proper noun, like a country, company, sports club... Can the Russian Blues be aware of their corporate identity? Ro Thorpe 01:49, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and they have advised their owners humans accordingly. Aleta Curry 02:32, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Having had the pleasure of being owned by a Russian Blue mix I could say yes they do know this. :-) Russian Blues are very intelligent, quiet and loyal pets. I'd love have one again but I do not have the $1,200 plus to own a pet quality Russian Blue. I am owned by a British Shorthair who thinks he rules the roost. BTW British Shorthairs are much cheaper than Russian Blues. Mary Ash 02:26, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Aleta I checked the page history and I did start the article the "correct" way for Citizendium. That's okay because I debated too. Most sources do spell Mourning Dove like this. Some don't. Mary Ash 02:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Not really, Mary. Because you choose the title "Mourning Dove" (not "Mourning dove") (and you wrote "Mourning dove", not "mourning dove" , but this is not a serious affair. It can be repaired, and it has been repaired. It was a mistake that was not straightforward to see, and that others could have made, too. --Peter Schmitt 00:39, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

True.

Howard said "Mr. Clark observes, "which part of meow do you fail to understand?"

I think I want this on a T-shirt. Or on a tee shirt.

Aleta Curry 00:48, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes -- "Arf" is monosyllabic. Wren, our canine matriarch, is deaf, but it does not interfere with her ability to bark all night. "Arf, cogito sum."

In response to current U.S. political oversimplifications, I want a set of bumper stickers saying:

• Neither the Constitution
• Nor any of its Amendments
• Will fit on
• A bumper sticker.

--Howard C. Berkowitz 01:01, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Tucson pic

Hi, John, you're here in Tucson, aren't you? I'm up by Skyline and Swan and have more mourning doves than I know what to do with. In my first years here they drove me crazy with their incessant cooing, but for the last ten or so they seem to have calmed down -- maybe they know I'm getting grouchier as I age and that I *do* have a big gun somewhere around the house.... I saw one floating in my spa the other day, like a duck, first time I'd ever seen that.... Hayford Peirce 18:42, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Hayford: I am a sometimes Tucson visitor and I am here for a few days. From what I can see, the mourning dove has a good shot at being the most amorous bird on the planet. John R. Brews 19:14, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Hope you have a great stay -- coolish weather these days. I think I can brighten the dove picture a little using Picasa.... Hayford Peirce 19:34, 25 March 2011 (UTC)