Talk:Mourning dove

the title of the article should be Mourning dove

Hi, Mary, as I said yesterday on the Talk page of Wild Turkey, the CZ convention is not to use capital letters in the name of an article unless the word itself is a proper noun. Therefore the Wild Turkey article should be called Wild turkey and this article should be called Mourning dove. As for Russian Blue, I'm not sure -- it could probably be argued either way. But for any future articles with more than one word, please remember to follow our conventions. Thanks! Hayford Peirce 00:34, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure. Isn't dove part of the proper name of this bird? While I am sure that you would type dove when talking about the species, would you type this particular bird as a mourning dove or a Mourning Dove or a Mourning dove. I'm thinking that it's Mourning Dove. Using mourning dove would suggest that the bird is actually mourning. Mourning dove would suggest that the name of the dove was Mourning. That only leaves Mourning Dove. Good question. D. Matt Innis 03:25, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

This one isn't even close, nor is the wild turkey one. Only *proper* names are in caps. If you look in the 11th edition of the Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary it says, "mourning dove is a kind of American dove." And there's no difference between "wild turkey" and "wild rice", for instance. Both of them have lower case. Just like "mountain lion", "prairie dog", and anything else like that. Trust me on this -- this is just the way it is. I *will* admit that I'm not 100% sure about Russian Blue, but I *am* sure about these two items. (PS -- even if it's a species, unless it's a *scientific* name, it *still* isn't in Caps. "Dove", for instance, is just dove, just as lion or tiger or elephant or dog is.) Hayford Peirce 03:40, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

PPS -- take a look at Dog and Cat -- do you see any caps there? This whole article about mourning doves will have to lower-case every instance of "Mourning dove" in the text -- it simply isn't correct. Hayford Peirce 03:44, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Just took a quick look at Dog, I see Grey Wolf and Dandie Dinmont Terrier just to name a couple. I agree wolf would be lower case, but Grey Wolf is the proper name, just as Mourning Dove is a the proper name for a type of dove. And I do trust you. D. Matt Innis 03:57, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

The editors of M-W #11 do not agree with you about "mourning dove" nor "gray wolf" (not grey wolf) nor even "Dandie Dimont terrier" -- in the last case the first two words are in caps because they are derived from a proper name. "terrier", however, is lower-case. Plus look up these words in real sources -- you will find that the names of animals are NOT capitalized unless there is a proper noun in the name, such as "African elephant" or "Asian elephant." I didn't look all through the Dog article, so I missed the examples you mentioned -- all it means is that they are *wrong*. Did you count how many times "dog" was not capitalized, nor "cat", nor the names of any other animals in other articles? If "Mourning dove" was named after someone named "Jean-Claude Mourning", then I agree that it should be "Mourning dove". Since this is *not* the case, it is, correctly, "mourning dove". If you don't believe *me*, how about asking Ro for his judgment on this? I will certainly abide by any ruling he makes.... Hayford Peirce 04:30, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Hayford, do you have any designs on soiled dove? Howard C. Berkowitz 04:39, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Mourning Dove is a proper name of a type of dove. There are many kinds of doves, not just Mourning Doves, hence the upcase. Here's some examples of how this was used:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mourning_Dove
• http://www.fws.gov/digitalmedia/cdm4/results.php?CISOBOX2=Mourning+Dove&ddlMediaFormat=JPG&CISOROOT=all&CISORESTMP=%2Fcdm4%2Fresults.php&CISOVIEWTMP=%2Fcdm4%2Fitem_viewer.php&CISOMODE=thumb&CISOGRID=thumbnail%2CA%2C1%3Btitle%2CA%2C1%3Bsubjec%2CA%2C0%3Bdescri%2C200%2C0%3Bnone%2CA%2C0%3B20%3Btitle%3B&CISOBIB=title%2CA%2C1%2CN%3Bsubjec%2CA%2C0%2CN%3Bdescri%2C200%2C0%2CN%3Bdate%2CA%2C0%2CN%3B20&CISOTHUMB=20+%284x5%29%3Brelevancy%2Cnone%2Cnone%2Cnone%2Cnone&CISOFIELD2=CISOSEARCHALL&CISOOP2=all&CISOFIELD1=format&CISOOP1=any&CISOBOX1=JPG+&CISOFIELD3=subjec&CISOOP3=none&CISOBOX3=&CISOFIELD4=subjec&CISOOP4=none&CISOBOX4=&History=on&s8fid=24012815031252
• http://www.allaboutbirds.org/guide/Mourning_Dove/id
• http://www.birds.cornell.edu/BOW/moudov/
• http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/mourning_dove.htm

As to the turkey article you had to upcase Wild as it was the start of a title. You could and should write wild turkey in later references as it is not a proper name for a turkey. Now if it was a Rhode Island Red turkey (made the name up here) then that's how it would be written. The same could be written for the domestic turkey. Upcase Domestic turkey in the title and so forth. Mary Ash 05:21, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. There could be arguments both ways here; I'm not taking a strong position, although I'd write "Siamese cat" but "Russian Blue".

Why do I sigh? The very first example you give in support of your position is a Wikipedia link. You simply seem unwilling to accept that Wikipedia is not a source, nor other Wikis without real name policies. It seems as if you have very selective hearing about things that don't meet your preconceptions of how CZ should work.

Also, the usual courteous way to give references/counterarguments is to quote the relevant text, and then give a URL. It's not fair to expect the reader to go and figure out what you have in mind in an article -- as with the multiple references to the John Mack Institute, most of which I was able to give a quite specific bibliographic reference.

No, I don't suppose I'm being all cuddly and warm. So be it. Howard C. Berkowitz 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Awww shucks Howard getting all friendly now :-) ? Sorry about the WP reference but it was handy. As to the Russian Blue. It is a proper name of a cat.Mary Ash 06:20, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but it would be "Russian Blue cat." My late Chatterley may not have had a pedigree, but considered herself the Czarina, and would pose whenever a camera was pointed in her direction.

In any event, "The Naming of Cats is a Difficult Matter," more so than that of hawks and doves. Personally, in Washington, I preferred the wise owls.Howard C. Berkowitz 06:25, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Collins English Dictionary 1979 list mourning dove -- lowercase twice. Thus both AE and BE dictionaries agree on this and the case clear. --Peter Schmitt 08:57, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

An internet search is quite convenient, Mary. I often use it myself to check spelling or language, but one has to be very careful and aware that internet hits do not prove anything. Incorrect usage spreads quickly. Thus the links you give show why it was reasonable for you to create the page with an uppercase title. (Incidently, have you noticed that two pictures in the second link use "dove"?) But if a language issue has to be settled then it is not the number of hits that counts, but it are the major (trusted) dictionaries that decide. --Peter Schmitt 09:50, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

from the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 6th edition (2007): mourning dove a common grey-brown N. American pigeon, Zenaida macroura, with a plaintive call. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I can see both sides. Obviously this is not the place to settle title issues for similar decisions. I'd say go ahead and change the name and then, if the issue re-occurrs, bring it to the new Editorial Council for something in the policy that all of us southerners can follow. After all, Mourning Dove is a southern delicacy :) D. Matt Innis 12:32, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Text here was removed by the Constabulary on grounds that it is needlessly inflammatory. (The author may replace this template with an edited version of the original remarks.) D. Matt Innis 15:47, 11 August 2010 (UTC)