Talk:British and American English

Canàrd

I heard this pron on CNN, but I supect it isn't standard. Ro Thorpe 17:22, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I've never heard anyone actually say it except when referring to a coin-coin-type canard, so I really don't know. By the way, are "canaille" and "canard" in the French list? Hayford Peirce 17:29, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

i thought of the former, + don't think it is. Ro Thorpe 17:45, 4 May 2008 (CDT) - but they are both.

warren

should this - + perhaps similar - be on the list~ bre has the ó sound, ame apparently the or sound - Ro Thorpe 13:12, 25 May 2008 (CDT)

Geyser

my dictionary says, is from a particular spring in Iceland. Ro Thorpe 17:20, 29 June 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, I think I knew that. What I meant was, do the Brits (or did they) call "water heaters" in general "geysers", either after the real thing in Iceland or after the name, say, of a particular British company that made them? Hayford Peirce 17:29, 29 June 2008 (CDT)

definitely i have heard that usage, which is where 'geezer' comes from, yes - don't recall if it was a cº name - Ro Thorpe 17:38, 29 June 2008 (CDT)

Trailer

isn't general usage for 'caravan', is it? Ro Thorpe 14:48, 9 July 2008 (CDT)

It used to be when I was a kid. Now I think they're "mobile homes", plus some other terms that don't readily spring to mind.... Hayford Peirce 15:38, 9 July 2008 (CDT)

i asked coz i heard it u-no-where. is 'caravan' used in any sense in merkin? Ro Thorpe 18:38, 9 July 2008 (CDT)

just sliced off some finger & am back from the ER feelin' OK. am gonna go to bed with an extra-cold martini but it's hard to type. "caravan" is used *only* in the sense of "a caravan of old trucks snaked its way through the desert, following their intrepid leader Hayford Peirce 00:18, 10 July 2008 (CDT)"

ouch - hope it's on the mend now. thanks for confirming my suspicions - Ro Thorpe 10:36, 10 July 2008 (CDT)

feels fine this morning but am typing with 1 finger. "trailer" is still used, particularly in "she lives in a trailer park" or "trailer home park". Or "she is trailer park trash". poor girl.... Hayford Peirce 10:46, 10 July 2008 (CDT)

good; and yes, i've put it in, have heard all those uses - Ro Thorpe 10:53, 10 July 2008 (CDT)

redundant vs laid off

isn't "made redundant" used by brits to say, "GM laid off 6,000 workers today"? or some such. it;s never used in that way in 'merkin. Hayford Peirce 11:35, 10 July 2008 (CDT)

nice one, that's exactly right, and nearly always in the passive. Ro Thorpe 12:36, 10 July 2008 (CDT)

active: "bill smith wuz redundantized today"? hehe.... Hayford Peirce 13:05, 10 July 2008 (CDT)

sounds like 'disappeared'. i'll put it in. as i type, the bbc are talking, not for the 1st time, of 'emily brontay'...sigh... Ro Thorpe 13:21, 10 July 2008 (CDT)

oh, i say! Hayford Peirce 14:00, 10 July 2008 (CDT)

Naughty

yes, i was surprized, as jane austen would put it, that checkers wasn't in - no doubt that inspired your 'naught' - and the spelling. the 'a' spelling is a near-obsolete synonym of 'nothing', as in 'stop at naught', the 'o' spelling is 0. 'zero' is used by brits too, but has serious sci connotations. i'm surprised at 'cipher' though, i thought that usage was obsolete, or referred only to the 0 character. must stop now before my arm falls off - Ro Thorpe 17:53, 19 July 2008 (CDT)

?should we have both:

• naught
• nought

Hayford Peirce 18:35, 19 July 2008 (CDT)

i'd go for 'nought' in the table and a footnote to cover BrE 'zero' - if it's more limited than AmE usage - ? - and 'naught', which ox. has as 'arch' but then goes on to quote 3 acceptable modern usages, 'bring to', 'come to' and 'set at' to add to mine above - Ro Thorpe 18:49, 19 July 2008 (CDT)

what's the brit fer tic-tac-toe? crosses and noughts? something like that.... Hayford Peirce 19:18, 19 July 2008 (CDT)

Coffin Ed Johnson and Gravedigger Jones

Chester Himes didn't call one his of tough Harlem cops Casket Ed Johnson -- although he could have, of course: it has a nice ring to it. But i would say that the two words are interchangeable for 'merkins. although the croque-morts (a great word!) want ppl to use the word "casket". don't brits use it at all? Hayford Peirce 13:45, 20 July 2008 (CDT)

i never used it, but the ox says a small jewel box, for example, can be called a casket. i'll see if i can reflect that in the list - Ro Thorpe 13:48, 20 July 2008 (CDT)

my own impression, and MW has just confirmed it, is that a "casket" is a "fancy coffin". in deadwood you're buried in a wooden coffin. if you're a gangster in chicago, you're buried in a $10,000 casket. when winnie was walked throught the streets, what wuz he in? a coffin? a casket? Hayford Peirce 15:48, 20 July 2008 (CDT)

you're referring to the 1965 funeral, but the same with any of 'em, eg the qm, i've never heard a brit use the word casket. so the latter is a fancy coffin in america, 'twould appear - Ro Thorpe 12:56, 21 July 2008 (CDT)

hmmm, i'll be darned! it must have been a word introduced by the croque-morts about the time, back in the 40s and 50s, when they evolved from "undertakers" to "funeral directors".... Hayford Peirce 13:32, 21 July 2008 (CDT)

that figures. by the way, should 'croque-mort', which i'd never heard before, be in the french list? Ro Thorpe 15:36, 21 July 2008 (CDT)

no, no, it's just french slang that i gleaned years ago from reading the wonderful Lucky Luke comic books. books that were actually comic! Hayford Peirce 16:06, 21 July 2008 (CDT)

so i see. wikipedia has a short article on him, shooting faster than his own shadow, but can cz do better? Ro Thorpe 17:39, 21 July 2008 (CDT)

that looks like a fairly thorough article to me. a cz article could be less impersonal and better organized but it ain't for me. if you scroll down to the bottom of the french article, you'll see a typical xroque-mort in the series, looking like a vulture and smiling happily at the prospect of a gunfight. the guys who did this series really were geniuses when at their best. they were funny both visually (extremely rare, almost unheard of, even) and in the plotting and dialogue. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucky_Luke Hayford Peirce 18:59, 21 July 2008 (CDT)

yes, accompanied by a vulture, in fact - good stuff! Ro Thorpe 10:34, 22 July 2008 (CDT)

Pocketbook

turned up again on the BBC, Congressman Ed Schuster I think it was. Canadian Lyse Doucet understood its metaphorical meaning... Ro Thorpe 15:41, 30 August 2008 (CDT)

We talked about it interminably a while back, now in the Archives at http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:British_and_American_English/Archive_1, but, I guess wore ourselves out so badly that we never actually put it in the list. Hayford Peirce 21:56, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, right, thanks for the reference - well, it's finally got its hyphen! Ro Thorpe 00:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

vaze as in haze

I dunno if I've ever heard that, but as feu mon epouse useta say, "Tous les gouts sont dans la nature...." Hayford Peirce 14:06, 22 September 2008 (CDT)

mw says it's most common in canada, certainly it's new to me too - Ro Thorpe 14:31, 22 September 2008 (CDT)

Fifth graders

Who are these people? Eight-year olds? Nine-year-olds? Ten-year-olds? This stuff needs a note, I think. Ro Thorpe 19:05, 5 October 2008 (CDT)

When I was at (British) school, the fifth form was 15-16 year olds. Given how Americans seem to inflate numbers (and everything else) I suppose their fifth form would be more like 12th? It would be useful to know what their Vice-Presidential candidate is wittering on about, though...Martin Baldwin-Edwards 20:44, 5 October 2008 (CDT)

How did *this* topic spring up?! Just FYI, I started 5th grade when I was 9 going on 10, but the more usual starting age would be 10. And even though 'Merkins *do* love to inflate numbers, if fifth form was 15-16 y/o's, that would probably be 11th grade for most kids that age. Most 'Merkins graduate from high school (12th grade) at 18, although 17 is possible, and 19 is not rare (particularly not among star football players). Hayford Peirce 21:02, 5 October 2008 (CDT)

Thanks, folks. See how you like my notes. Ro Thorpe 10:47, 6 October 2008 (CDT)

Eggcellent! Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:53, 6 October 2008 (CDT)

Thanks, Martin. Governor Peirce? Ro Thorpe 10:55, 6 October 2008 (CDT)

Hmmm, I'd never thought of expressing it that way before, but the numbers seem to be right. Innaresting.... Hayford Peirce 11:09, 6 October 2008 (CDT)

Good. Just shows how widespread that usage seems to be in American English, whereas in Britain e.g. 'fifth formers' would rarely be used outside the school context; also such expressions are confined to secondary schools. Ro Thorpe 11:30, 6 October 2008 (CDT)

It's not just "widespread", it's both universal, and, I dare say, the official language, at least in all public schools. There are a few oddities from the old *old* days, like the school I went to, Phillips Exeter Academy, founded around 1780, in which the four classes (9th through 12th grades) are called, if I recall correctly, Lower Middle, Upper Middle, Junior, and Senior. Sort of like 'Merkin colleges or universities, where we have no numbers, but Freshman, Sophomore, Junior, and Senior years. Make of it all what you will.... Hayford Peirce 12:51, 6 October 2008 (CDT)

Or are you guys discussing this as a *metaphor*? Ie, "Sarah Palin last night revealed that she has the gravitas and knowledge of a fifth-grader"? Or some such. If so, then in 'Merka, that usage is absolutely universal, and everyone would instantly know what you meant. Hayford Peirce 14:21, 6 October 2008 (CDT)

Yes, that's what I meant by 'widespread' - its use where Brits would say '...of a ten-year-old'. And not just figuratively, but also as in 'the yard was full of xth-graders' - the American novels I have read with sentences like that in, thinking, well, must be about y years old from the context... Ro Thorpe 14:37, 6 October 2008 (CDT)

Gotcha. We are all, I would say, about on the 17th-grade level (first year post-grad studies in college) at the very least, hehe.... ~

"O Level Oscar"

I read a fine Brit thriller written about 1968 in which a relatively minor character, a thuggish or maybe just loutish London teenager, had a chapter about him entitled, more or less, "O-Level Oscar" or "O Level Henry". I got the drift of things, but it took me several years, I think, to get the exact reference. No Google in those days :( Hayford Peirce 15:18, 6 October 2008 (CDT)

Yes, and it's now GSCEs (at least, I think that's the latest version) which I don't understand at all... Ro Thorpe 09:34, 7 October 2008 (CDT)

Actually it's General Certificate of Secondary Education (GCSE). As far as I'm aware these are exams that everyone takes. They replaced a two tier system of the GCE (General Certificate of Education) O-level, aimed at the higher level students and the CSE that was aimed at the lower level. I'm not sure how it works in reality. Do they still have GCE A-levels (like AP courses in US?) and S-levels or are they under the GCSE umbrella too? Chris Day 09:52, 7 October 2008 (CDT)

Yes, they still have A Levels, although they are trying to destroy those too. I think some schools tend toward the international baccalaureat as an alternative, but maybe only the cosmopolitan ones...Martin Baldwin-Edwards 02:15, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ever so awful

It suddenly occured to me that I think the phrase "ever so" is far, far, far more Brit than 'Merkin. Correct me if I'm wrong, but where a Brit might say, "That film was ever so funny and the popcorn was ever so bad," a 'Merkin might well say, "That movie was awfully funny and the popcorn was awfully bad...." Hayford Peirce 17:27, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

you're quite right, but it's the sort of thing i associate with working-class females of my mother's generation - do young people use it now, i wonder? it may be enshrined in dickens etc... Ro Thorpe 23:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

You got me, myte. So it's working class rather than Bright Young Things? Hayford Peirce 00:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

i'm ever so unsure of this and would value a second opinion - Ro Thorpe 13:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I meself am awfully unsure about it -- where is Martin Baldwin-Edwards when we need him? Hayford Peirce 15:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Ha! Well, I am unsure but am inclined to agree with Ro. I will try to check it out in London tomorrow, during my fleeting visit. Maybe I can use the expression in my lecture, and see how the audience responds! Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Give it a go, myte! as we Aussie sye. That would be ever so cheeky! Hayford Peirce 16:02, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

High there!

Correct me if I'm wrong, me mytes, but does the 'Merkin "Main Street", so beloved of birdbrained politicians, translate to "High Street", which was mentioned today in a NYT op-ed piece by a Brit? Hayford Peirce 02:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Chris Day 02:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Slight difference in usage, the high street, and also Bromley High Street (Kent) but not I think Bromley Main Street (Arizona?). Ro Thorpe 15:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I wondered if "the" was always used with "high street". And no, I don't believe that other names are ever used with "Main Street," ie, there is no "Peirce Main Street" in downtown Tucson. So, given all this, what will you do about the High Street-Main Street entry I made? Edit, amend, footnote, delete...? Hayford Peirce 16:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I was thinking maybe a footnote. Ro Thorpe 17:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Yup, a footnote would probably be the way to go. Hayford Peirce 17:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

"High!" again

I'm pretty sure that in the three fine spy novels that the Brit Desmond Skirrow wrote in the 1960s, every time an American character turned up, he would *always* say something like, "High, there!" Always spelled High. And Skirrow, who wrote copy for a big-time London advertising agency, obviously knew what he was doing here. A subtle put-down? Satire? Leg-pulling? Or what? Any other instances that you know of? Hayford Peirce 03:54, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen someone use "high" before. Chris Day 04:05, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Hockey Maugham, to rhyme with "Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son"

I knew a Tahitian guy, whose first language was French, and second language English, who was fascinated by S. Maugham and collected his works. I could *never* get him to believe that the name was not pronounced Mog-hum, hehe.... Hayford Peirce 21:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, with spelling pronunciation going the way it's going, who's to say the next generation won't decide he was right? Ro Thorpe 21:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

further to "ever so questionable"

I guess we never did decide what to do about "ever so something or other"....

A headline in today's Arizona Daily Star 's sports section: "A Jolly Good Show by Saints, Chargers", anent a National Football League ('Merkin version) played yesterday before 85,000 Brits in London. I *know* that they're being tongue in cheek, and gently twitting our Limey friends, but *does* anyone in Blighty still use "Jolly good!"? And if so, should it go into our list?

In the 90s on BBC World Service radio, there was a pop record request show called A Jolly Good Show, super ironic. No, I don't think this is worth putting in, having a distinctly old fashioned air, ditto 'ever so'. At least not exactly here.

Furthermore, Judge, what about "further to"? As in a bar sign that I used to see in Tahiti 45 years ago, "Further to police regulations, blah blah." I gather that it is actually used in Brit-type talk or writing. I don't think that it is in 'Merkin, however. Wotcha! Hayford Peirce 16:59, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Gee baby, well, I guess that's kinda legalese Brit style... Ro Thorpe 21:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

ticks and checks

Have become an obsessive over the last couple of weeks about http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/ -- on Tuesday night I can start my de-tox program -- and in one of the blogger's comments tonight he said that only Brits use the word "tick" for "boxes and ballots". True? Vrai? I think that I *might* have heard the expression in 'Merkin, but it sure ain't verra common.... Hayford Peirce 01:59, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

That's one I've long been sensitive to, but, it seems, not in front of the computer. I'll put it in.

Yes, 538 I looked at when you recommended it before, &, thankya myte, I'll go there again, as I am having another wineless night as a result of antibiotics for an accursed bladder infection.

Also, some chriffic Merkin writing on Bush in the Guardian today. Ro Thorpe 03:42, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

As one of the reigning writers from Minnesota, Garrison Keller, or some such, calls him always: "The Current Occupant". May he rot in the nether regions. Can't bear to read anything about him, or even to think about him. Fortunately he has lately vanished from all our screens and even our consciousness.... Hayford Peirce 04:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, 'tis a long time since I had to change channels to get away from him; this is still necessary alas quite often when there appears the late occupant of nº10; before him it was his mentor Thatcher, but we now have the occasional pleasure of seeing a somewhat post-conscious Maggon on our screens, & perhaps we'll live to see the other two in a similar state. Meanwhile Nulayba continues its attacks on hard-won British liberties, and it's quite normal for people to shout in public libraries.

Do you agree with my addition of 'swish' as in 'Nike'? Always a tick to me, as learner & teacher. Ro Thorpe 15:27, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I guess so, but as far as I know that is the *only* place it occurs. Frankly I was baffled by your addition until I saw this discussion page. I think I would remove it on the grounds that it *only* occurs in these wretched advertisements. To me, this thing, as a noun, is a "checkmark", although MW-11 defines "checkmark" as being definition #10 of check. Hayford Peirce 15:48, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

speaking of one-off words

MW-11 does show "one-off", and doesn't call it a "Mostly Brit. usage", but I gotta say that I sure don't think of it as an Americanism. I could be wrong, I suppose.... Hayford Peirce 20:58, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Surprised at that. My Oxfords don't label it, thesaurus doesn't have it - so what do you say, or is a phrase needed? Ro Thorpe 21:10, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Strangely enough Bill Safire wrote an article about the damn thing only a couple of months ago -- I musta read it at the time but completely forgot about it. Here it is. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/24/magazine/24wwln-safire-t.html/partner/rssnyt/?_r=1&scp=8&sq=one-off&st=cse&oref=slogin I was doing a search in the NYT and *most* of their references were to something like "Two guys got off the airplane but only one off the boat." Constructions like that.... Anyway, thank you, Bill Safire. Hayford Peirce 21:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Funny, for me it's always been around, & if asked I'd've hazarded that it was American. It does indeed mean unique (a word that all sensible persons know should not be qualified) but there is this usage difference: a unique example = a one-off example (adjective), but it's a one-off = it's unique (not a noun). Ro Thorpe 23:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll be darned. I've certainly never used it myself, and I don't think I've *ever* heard anyone speak the word. I see now that Safire's piece was from June of 2007, and I doubt if I was even aware of the word until I read about it in his column. A strange gap in my knowledge, perhaps.... Hayford Peirce 00:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, every now & then I find I have had such a gap... Ro Thorpe 01:17, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

me shirt's too tight, myte

Isn't there a Brit word "shirty"? If so, do we want it here with its 'Merkin equivalent? Or is it too much slangy? And what did we decide to do with slang, anyhow? Just put in slang that has stood the test of time, or what? Hayford Peirce 21:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I dunno. Certainly both my (80s) dictionaries have it, but it's not something I've heard for, er, ever so long. But then I'm not really in a position to judge. Probably better to ask one of the Brits who actually lives there. I'd be interested to hear your nominees for American equivalent, though: indeed, that highlights the main problem, indeed the whole point, of slang: nothing is official or intended to be permanent... Ro Thorpe 22:01, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, just looked it up in MW and it says: adj (1846) chiefly Brit: ANGRY, IRRITATED.... That's a long time that it's been around. But, of course, I dunno if anyone ever uses it any more. I think I've still seen it in Brit. novels, but whether they're 1920s Agatha Christies or more recent ones I can't recall. I think I *have* seen it occasionally in 60s spy thrillers, etc., that sort of thing.... Hayford Peirce 05:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I associate it with my parents & their ilk, but don't recall it in the sitcoms that BBC Prime was airing a year or two ago. Probably it is still around, but it's definitely slang, anyway. Ro Thorpe 05:22, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Okie, so it's a no-go fer us August Lexicographers.... Hayford Peirce 15:57, 8 November 2008 (UTC)