Talk:Oriental (word)

Oriental (word)

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Article Checklist for "Oriental (word)"

Workgroup category or categories	Linguistics Workgroup, Geography Workgroup, Sociology Workgroup [Editors asked to check categories]
Article status	Developing article: beyond a stub, but incomplete
Underlinked article?	Yes
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	Larry Sanger 02:36, 27 July 2007 (CDT); Russell Potter 10:10, 3 July 2007 (CDT)

To learn how to fill out this checklist, please see CZ:The Article Checklist.

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This article talk page is now under dispute watch

See CZ:Dispute Watch. You're going to have to start using the {{prop}} template in the way that page describes. We're testing out a dispute resolution idea, but I'm taking the test seriously. From now on, disputation on this page must be on-topic, and on-topic means (1) aimed at a specific proposition, (2) the proposition must concern the wording of the text, and (3) engaging in a dispute, as opposed to how to characterize the dispute, is off-topic. Call it the Anti-Bloviation Rule!  :-) --Larry Sanger 07:23, 3 August 2007 (CDT)

"For most Asians"

Proposition: "For most Asians," or some other means of qualification, should be added to "While "I ordered oriental rice" is acceptable language, "I handed my coat to an oriental woman" is not."

This article is on dispute watch. This requires that all argumentation directly concern clearly-stated propositions about article wording.

I have made this change. The reason is straightforward. As Will has amply demonstrated, not everyone agrees with the claim in question. Hence, our Neutrality Policy demands that we qualify the claim somehow. This is perfectly straightforward. I request that if you, Richard, want to change it back, you address this first. --Larry Sanger 03:20, 3 August 2007 (CDT)

Rumor or Fact?

Proposition: Delete "In the 1970s the Ford administration banned the word (as applied to people) from federal government usage. " unless this statement can be sourced.

This article is on dispute watch. This requires that all argumentation directly concern clearly-stated propositions about article wording.

This is not only unsourced, it is factually wrong. I can point to Fair Housing Documents and EOE documents in use today which use this term to describe people. Will Nesbitt 07:33, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Value Judgment / Bias

Proposition: Remove/reword this sentence "Today, unquestionably, in educated and polite company, one very rarely hears the word applied to people." on the basis that it is full of absolutes (which can be challenged on their own merits) and draws a line of controversy and argumentation where there is none.

This article is on dispute watch. This requires that all argumentation directly concern clearly-stated propositions about article wording.

CZ editors of East Asian ancestry and with ties to Oriental communities have already demonstrated that there is no great controversy associated with this word. This sentence stakes out an impossibly aggressive stance against the usage of Oriental which is neither supported anecdotally or by usage references. Furthermore, the sentence implies that those who do not agree with the editor's interpretation of the language are both impolite and uneducated.

It is true that some people find this word offensive in some usages, but this is the case with virtually every racial, regional, cultural and nationalistic label in the English language. Most readers know this already, and when we stake out this sort of grounds we risk alienated many fair-minded people. Will Nesbitt 07:42, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Missing Source

Proposition: Source or remove following sentence: "However "oriental medicine" is somewhat more controversial."

This article is on dispute watch. This requires that all argumentation directly concern clearly-stated propositions about article wording.

The source is a dead link. The word is still commonly used by practitioners of Oriental medicine (as can be documented in any metropolitan Yellow Pages). This sentence may refer to legistlation which was passed a few years ago about the use of the phrase "Oriental Medicine". If I recall correctly, that phrasing was banned from state documents, but reality didn't comply with this edict. The word never was eradicated from California websites and documents after the complaints of a goodly number of practitioners. Will Nesbitt 07:48, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Editorial claim unsupported by any source

Proposition: This sentence: "Many Asian gangs such as the OPB, Oriental Playboys, and the ORB Oriental Rutheless Boys, refer to themselves as oriental to stress they are outside social norms" should read: "Many Asian gangs such as the OPB, Oriental Playboys, and the ORB Oriental Rutheless Boys, refer to themselves as oriental."

This article is on dispute watch. This requires that all argumentation directly concern clearly-stated propositions about article wording.

This sentence ascribes a motive where no evidence of motive exists. It would be almost as silly to assume that the Shriners and the Oriental Food Association use the word to stress they are outside societal norms. The fact that this term is broadly used by members within and without polite society is an indicator that there is no large measure of controversy associated with the word. Will Nesbitt 07:53, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Grammatical and Organizational Concerns

Proposition: This phrase under "Derivation" is not a complete sentence: "Scholars in the field belong to the The American Oriental Society, founded in 1842." This sentence is part of a paragraph or two about "Usage" and has nothing to do with the header "Derivation".

This article is on dispute watch. This requires that all argumentation directly concern clearly-stated propositions about article wording.

I would make this change myself, but I am trying to work through this new system. Will Nesbitt 07:56, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Material should be sourced and accurate

Proposition: Replace unsourced and vague statement "In the 1960s, Asian Americans began protesting the term as applied to people as insulting;" with a more accurate and source statement such as: "'The Oriental Student Union (OSU) at Seattle Central Community College (SCCC) was founded in 1970. It modeled itself after the campus Black Student Union (BSU), which during the 1968-9 school year had used direct action protests to demand black studies and the hiring of black administrators and faculty.' The Oriental Student Union was instrumental in bringing awareness to the Asian American community and at the forefront of a movement to change the American English lexicon.

This article is on dispute watch. This requires that all argumentation directly concern clearly-stated propositions about article wording.

This second sentence contains a direct quote from the Seattle Civil Rights and Labor History Project, a great resource for information about the nexus of the "Asian rights" movement. Will Nesbitt 08:13, 5 August 2007 (CDT)