Talk:Michael Faraday/Draft

I shake my fists at his cage when I have no cell reception in buildings. --Robert W King 11:15, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

Finished

As far as I'm concerned this article is finished. If you compare it with the WP article you will find that certain facts are missing in the present article:

• the clathrate hydrate of chlorine, bunsen burner and the system of oxidation numbers.
• Outhgill in Westmorland
• George Riebau, John Tatum, William Dance, John Payne, Jane Apreece, John 'Mad Jack' Fuller, Joseph Henry, Francesco Zantedeschi
• Diffusion of gases
• Nanoparticles
• Lighthouses, corrosion and environmental science
• and more ...

The reasons that I did not mention them are:

• Do not overload with trivia. (For instance Riebau and Apreece have a WP article that says nothing more than that they played a role in Faraday's life).
• Doubt whether fact is correct (nanoparticles, environmental science, very fashionable topics, but none of my sources other than WP mentions them). I have doubts about oxidation numbers, these date from the 20th century. If Faraday had a concept like it, it needs lost of qualification and explanation.
• Is Outhgill in Yorkshire? (I saw two editions of Brittanica, both state that Faraday sr. came from Yorkshire, but fact is too unimportant to check).
• Unimportant part of Faraday's work (this point is debatable). E.g., my sources do not mention his lighthouse work, or only in passing. Same for bunsen burner.

I won't bother to give a similar list of facts that are in the present article and not in WP. If somebody will be good enough to remove my non-native-English awkwardnesses (or errors), I'll appreciate that. --Paul Wormer 11:30, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

PS. J. Gribbin (loc. cit.) writes Ribeau (WP: Riebau) and William Payne (WP: John Payne). Another reason to not mention these names.--Paul Wormer 13:07, 20 April 2008 (CDT)

HURRAY! nice job. Richard Jensen 14:01, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

Would it be a good idea to temporarily back off the nomination, to allow a copy-edit? I will volunteer, it nobody else does. (In my copious spare time.... :-( J. Noel Chiappa 19:19, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

sure--let's postdate the approval to when it's copyedited. :) Richard Jensen 19:42, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

Size Faraday's cube (cage)

Faraday writes about a "cube of twelve feet". He later sits in this cube, so that it cannot be twelve cubic feet. It could be 12×12×12 feet, but one wonders why it had to be so huge. Moreover, he writes: "a glass tube of about six feet in length was passed through its side, leaving about four feet within and two feet on the outside" and so I concluded that the cube was 4×4×4 feet, but I haven't found any corroboration on this. --Paul Wormer 13:04, 20 April 2008 (CDT)

Approval Issues

The approval date has arrived, but there appears to be some open issues concerning copyediting. Also, as the specific version is not selected, I am not sure if the edits that occurred after the 18th are to be included. I will wait till these issues are handled. --D. Matt Innis 22:23, 22 April 2008 (CDT)/constable

why don't we do the approval nomination today and the approval tomorrow to keep the p's and q's cleam. Richard Jensen 23:01, 22 April 2008 (CDT)

Okay, I'll stop by again later tonight to make sure everyone has had a chance to take a look. I did put the version number int he metadata template, so this is the version that I assume you want to approve. If there are any further changes, be sure to update teh version if you still approve. --D. Matt Innis 11:58, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Sorry, I'm confused by the interaction between copyediting, and approval. I offered to do copyediting, but thought I couldn't as the approval clock had already started (or something). Am I to understand that if in fact I copyedit it, and the Approving Editors continue to approve, then the version which I copyedited will become the Approved version? If so, I'll turn to. I just didn't want to mess up the Approval process. J. Noel Chiappa 13:59, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

To me it seems that there is abolutely no rush in approving this article. I much rather have correct English, even it it would take half a year or so. (I, as main contributor, did not invite approval yet, it was Richard's own initiative).--Paul Wormer 14:05, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

In my opinion routine copyediting and small changes are allowed until final approval. The approval process of a few days allows everyone to look for small and large errors. The small errors or omissions we correct immediately, and if anyone spots a major problem then we stop the approval process until the problem is resolved. Surely we do not want to restart the clock every time some minor change is made.Richard Jensen 14:17, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Well, I'm going to take Paul at his word, and dive in. I would agree that it makes sense that copyediting shouldn't really affect the clock - particularly if they approving editors approve the result (which is, I think, what's really key). But even if it does affect the clock, not the end of the world... and good content is more important! J. Noel Chiappa 14:44, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Noel, to clarify (I hope), once an editor places the ToApprove template and gives a date, that just starts the clock toward approval. It is expected that others will jump in to copyedit and suggest changes and even make changes. However, the version that is approved remains the history version that the nominating editor has placed in the metadata template. That editor may at any time change the version to an updated version if he/she feels that they still support the work. He/she may also remove the template, as can any editor that thinks the article is not correct. As a constable, I can only perform the mechanics of approval on the version that is on the metadata page, so keep an eye on that version number if changes were made. The nominating editor may or may not choose to include the new edits in his/her approval. The constable will review the talk page to make sure there were not any unresolved issues and the proper procedures were followed. If the date has arrived and there are no unresolved issues, the constable will protect the page. --D. Matt Innis 19:33, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Also, notice that Richard (the nominating editor) cannot make content changes in the article for an individual approval to occur, so any content changes need to be made by others. Then it is up to Richard to decide if he want to change the date/version to include the new changes. --D. Matt Innis 19:42, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Got it (I think :-). So, given the extensive changes I have made, the esteemed Prof. Jensen will himself have to switch the nomination to point my latest version, but that won't reset the clock. Do I have that right? J. Noel Chiappa 20:34, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Yes, that is right. See approval rules, too. Ultimately, these are the rules, so as long as you follow them. Notice also the section on revoking approvals. --D. Matt Innis 20:46, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Copyediting issues

You should take a look at the intro section; I added a good chunk of intro text because I felt it was really needed to describe for the average reader what he did, and why it was so important. In the rest of the text I have gone through so far, including the rest of the intro, I haven't actually made any major changes to your text; it just looks like there are a lot of changes because of some changes which I made in where the paragraph breaks (which the 'diff' command relies on a little too heavily, I think) are. Anyway, I hope (and suspect) you'll like the new intro better, but let me know what you think, and I can tweak it more if needed. J. Noel Chiappa 15:38, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

OK, I've gone up through the end of the bio section. Again, although there are quite a number of small changes to improve the flow of the English, I made few content changes. I added some material about both his discovery of i) how to make electricity continuously move a magnet, and ii) electric induction, to make it clearer what they are, and why they are important. I also added a sentence about his death and burial, since I thought that was of interest. I am working on the 'scientific work' section now. J. Noel Chiappa 18:47, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

UK in Europe?

Noel, I can tell that you have a British passport: traveling in Europe means for us continentals traveling on the continent and in the UK. I know that in the UK people see that differently. You know the prewar Times headline, don't you? It read: Dense fog: Europe isolated. I beg to differ. --Paul Wormer 16:21, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Good point! I'll fix it in a second (Larry is distracting me in a variety of places). J. Noel Chiappa 16:49, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

I fixed it already. Did you also read the science part, or not yet?--Paul Wormer 16:51, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, I just saw. I haven't done the science yet; like I said, Larry distracted me, and my family also just walked in the door (it's 6PM here). I'm off to work on it right now. I take it you liked the new material in the intro? J. Noel Chiappa 17:04, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Yes, it emphasizes the technological aspects, which always is a seller. To avoid misunderstanding I rephrased conjoined area, because magnetism and electricity were not conjoined at all at the beginning of F's career. At the end they were, for a large part due to F's work. I don't like the "although he did work in chemistry". He was as important as chemist as as physicist, and I feel in "although" something secondary. --Paul Wormer 19:08, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

It turns out that I (for other reaons) moved 'conjoined', 'affiliated', etc around, but I will re-read that section to make sure that it makes clear that before Oersted/Faraday/etc, nobody knew that E+M were connected.

On the relative importance of his physics and chemistry work, I'm going to have to disagree with you - although I will note that most of the 'great scientist' books take the same line. Yes, his work in chemistry (in particular electro-chemistry) was huge, but when you compare it to the impact of the physics he did (which was the precursor the electrification of the industrial world...) - hard to beat that. Then you get into his influence on later physics, with his thinking about fields, which underpin most of modern physics. However, I will look at the chemistry languge in the intro, and beef it up a bit. J. Noel Chiappa 22:40, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

shop or store?

I see the RI with his labs more as a (work)shop than as a (department) store, that is why I wrote "lived above the shop". Are you sure that "store" is to be preferred?--Paul Wormer 19:46, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

The basic phrase is definitely a common euphemism in English for 'living where you work'. My sense is that the variant "living above the store" is more common than "living above the shop". However, that might be a UK-US thing; I think "shop" is more common in the UK. Either would be readily understood by people everywhere, though. J. Noel Chiappa 20:09, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Polarization

You write that the rotation of the polarizaton plane by a magnet was predicted theoretically. I didn't know that and find this fascinating. Who predicted that?--Paul Wormer 19:54, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Let me see; that sort of came from this page from the University of St Andrews. I see that I didn't get it quite right: he had apparently looked for an effect like this earlier (according to this page), but failed: he only tried again after prompting from William Thomson (Lord Kelvin), who had done a theoretical analysis. I will clarify that in the page (and add that link to the External links, it's a good one). J. Noel Chiappa 20:09, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

I find the same version of events in the Faraday Biography page by Frank James. J. Noel Chiappa 20:30, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

I know that Thomson suggested this experiment but "theoretical prediction" is overstating it. For one thing Faraday had to experiment how to hold the magnet in relation to the light beam and the polarizer. A real theoretical prediction would have told him. Thomson made a suggestion of the type: "It is conceivable that ..." --Paul Wormer 21:27, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

(My computer fritzed out; just back online now.) I will reword that section to make all this clear. J. Noel Chiappa 22:20, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Rotational motion

I had left out the "rotational" because I was trying to emphasize that Faraday's big step forward past Oersted was that although the latter produced motion, it was a one 'one time' thing; i.e. he turned on the current, the magnet needle moved, and then the motion ceased. So before Faraday it was known that electricity could move a magnet. To me, his big breakthrough was in working out how to cause continuous motion, i.e. motion that wouldn't stop as long as the current was on. I thought the "rotational" might get in the way of beginning readers understanding that point. Or are you saying there's something special about it being rotary, in particular? J. Noel Chiappa 22:25, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Oh, I just saw your edit summary: "added rotational to motion, this is highly significant because it undermined action at a distance which was thought to be rectilinear". I'm afraid my brain is starting to falter, I've been working at this too long; I will try again tomorrow morning to understand this.

Also, speaking of Faraday and Oersted, I was just looking at a book which made the point that while Oersted's work showed that electricity could move a magnet, Faraday was novel (I don't know if he was the first to have this thought, any insight you could offer about this would be good) in that he had the thought 'if I hold the magnet steady, the wire with the current should move'. Again, that's a significant point the article should make. J. Noel Chiappa 22:45, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Two things about this motion: (i) continuous and fast are remarkable (Oersted could hardly see his needle move) and (ii) rotational, because this was generally seen as undermining "action at a distance" which had to be rectilinear (at least that was believed to be an essential feature of it). Much of Faraday's work was on the study of "lines of force". These often are curved (think of the famous picture of a bar magnet with iron filings around it). Faraday knew that he was undermining with his ideas the authority of men like Cavendish, Poisson and Epinus (see[1] p. 362 and note that Faraday uses the term "induction" for electrostatic attraction and repulsion. I have never heard of Epinus). As I wrote, Thomson picked up these ideas and founded (together with Maxwell) the field concept, which undoubtedly still is the major pilar of physics.

Chemistry

Well, I'm beat - I'm going to get some sleep, and do the last sections tomorrow morning.

Speaking of last sections, I see that we have nothing about his chemistry work in the 'Biography' section. I propose to move some of the relevant material from the 'Chemistry' section of 'Science' there, leaving (as in physics) just the expermients in that section? J. Noel Chiappa 23:53, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Fields

One of the books I have that covers him has this to say:

Neither the motor or [generator] are perhaps his greatest achievements. He went on to .. demonstrate the ultimate unity between all forces, including E, M, light and even gravity, and to develop the idea of fields of force. This crucial insight has paved the way for modern physics...

Now, this is perhaps a little overblow (gravity?), but I think it does make an important point: his view of fields, not highly thought of in his day, does now underly basically all of modern physics. Should we say something like this? J. Noel Chiappa 23:53, 23 April 2008 (CDT)

Plagiarism? not

On the plagiarism issue, it's only a rumor and rejected by Faraday, Davy and Wollaston. to quote the latest study:

Within a month of his discovery rumours were circulating that Faraday had used some experimental work of both Davy and Wollaston without due acknowledgement. Faraday, just turned thirty, was disturbed by these rumours and was able to satisfy both Davy and Wollaston as to the propriety of his conduct, but this episode provided a foretaste of what was to come. In March 1823 Faraday performed an experiment, suggested by Davy, which unexpectedly resulted in chlorine being liquefied. Much to Davy's annoyance Faraday published this result. This episode contributed to Davy's opposition to Faraday's election to fellowship of the Royal Society to which he was nominated by Phillips in May 1823. Davy asked Faraday to take down the certificate, which he refused to do, and Davy became angry. Nevertheless Faraday was elected in early 1824, but, as he put it, he was thereafter ‘by no means in the same relation as to scientific communication with Sir Humphry Davy’ (Jones, 1st edn, 1.353). from Frank A. J. L. James, "Faraday, Michael (1791–1867)", Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Sept 2004; online edn, Jan 2008. Richard Jensen 01:48, 24 April 2008 (CDT)

I know about this story and tried to cover it by writing "alleged plagiarism". But I didn't know that Faraday convinced Davy, because I followed Gribbin, who writes (p. 417): This unpleasantness [the alleged plagiarism (PW)] may have been a factor in Davy attempting to prevent Faraday becoming a Fellow of the Royal Society in 1824. Elsewhere I read that there was one vote against Faraday. I also wrote that Davy was displeased by the liquefaction of chlorine. If you or Noel think that this plagiarism episode is not represented well, then maybe Noel can change/add a few words. If Richard would do it he could no longer approve the article (Matt is very strict).--Paul Wormer 11:09, 24 April 2008 (CDT)