Talk:Schnitzel

Thanks to Matt I used a reference tool maker

Thanks to Matt who kindly shared a reference tool maker I learned how to insert the references in the article tonight. I'm sure there are plenty of things wrong with my humble attempt but I am tired after spending about four hours researching and writing. Feel free to edit away! Thanks again Matt I sure do appreciate your help! Mary Ash 04:51, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Your references looked pretty good. Just made some minor edits needed to get references to follow sentence-ending periods without any spacing between the period and the reference. And when there are two references at the end of a sentence, the second one should start immediately after the first one, again with no spacing between the two references. All in all, your references were very much better than previously in other articles.Matt's tool worked quite well. Milton Beychok 05:27, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

One other thing, Mary. All articles should have an introduction of some kind (even if just a few sentences) before the first section header (History, in this case). Milton Beychok 06:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Excellent Mary! Haha, I'm impressed!!! Looks good!

The picture needs a the author's real name. I assume the one we have is a pseudonym. See if he'll give us permission using his real name. D. Matt Innis 19:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Matt I added a new photo to the article based on my newly learned information. I spent awhile last night trying to find a "real" name but could not. This newest photo has a real name. The photographer has asked that he be emailed letting him know how the photo was used. I'll email him later today with a link to the article. Thanks for the compliments. I couldn't have done it without the reference tool you sent to help me. It really, really helped. Many thanks!Mary Ash 20:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Good News! You are quite welcome. Keep an eye out for other reference makers, too. Some make it easier for magazines, or journals, etc. The picture looks good! D. Matt Innis 20:07, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the good edits Milt

Thanks for helping bring the article up to Citizendium style. I was in the kitchen making breakfast so I had to leave the ivory tower of writing for awhile. Thanks again for all your help.Mary Ash 16:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Introduction

The introduction to a CZ article does not include a header (i.e., ==Introduction== is not needed). Also, the first sentence should include the article's title in bold font (i.e., schnitzel in this case). As you can see by looking at other CZ articles, that is our accepted style. I have already made those minor corrections for you. Milton Beychok 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I knew about the bolding but I had to attend to household duties. As to the introduction, thanks for letting me know.Mary Ash 17:19, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The topic of this article

Before this article is further developed there should be agreement on its topic: Is it "schnitzel" or "Wiener schnitzel"? Is it about the international (English-speaking) use of these food terms, or about the German (Austrian) meaning? A third article could be about the "original" Wiener Schnitzel. --Peter Schmitt 17:29, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Origin (Radetzky)

To my own surprise, one of the first news I found when looking around was the discovery that the Wiener Schnitzel is not derived from the Costoletta alla Milanese. (I'm not sure if I have heard the Radetzky story before.) This requires more research.

One quite definitely advances one's knowledge when collaborating at CZ! --Peter Schmitt 17:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

If you check the reference links one German link (translated thanks to Google) and one German American web site both cite the Radetzky history. I'd appreciate further assistance, if needed, as I only eat schnitzel and they are very good. I'm also quite fond Spatzle and have been known to make some when the weather is cooler. Mary Ash 17:41, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

And Wikipedia, which I did not check, seems to agree with the Radetzky story. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnitzel. It would be interesting to see what you find out as I am sure it will help improve the article. Thanks! Mary Ash 17:44, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Mary. I know that you did not invent the story, and I would have told you that it came from Milano, too. It was a surprise for me. (But I knew that I would have to check some books ... not yet done!) The pointer was on the German WP, though. --Peter Schmitt 17:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks so much! Much to my Dad's regret I never could learn to speak or read German. I am dependent your expert skills to make this article the best it can be. BTW family history says my ancestors came from PrussiaMary Ash 18:00, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

pictures

I have two homemade pix, one of the uncooked, one of the cooked. I'll put them in later today. Hayford Peirce 19:46, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

That will work! Did you just cook it? D. Matt Innis 19:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Missed your message and I did had a new photo with hopefully the correct information. I made sure to find a photo with a real name attached. Mary Ash 20:01, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

That's it! I see he asked for an email, too. DId you send him one? D. Matt Innis 20:04, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The picture that Mary put in is much too dark. And too large. I have reduced its size but left it there -- I will let others decide if my picture is superior. I will now put in a picture of an *uncooked* cutlet. Hayford Peirce 20:07, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Mary's picture may be too dark, Hayford, (this can probably be changed with a picture editor), but it is the better picture. It shows a Wiener Schnitzel as it should be, with a lemon (I do not need it, but it is tradition) and potato salad. Apple sauce (you are thinking of Apfelkren, apple sauce with horseradish, for a Tafelspitz, I suppose) and the other items (peas, and what is that on the right?) are not at all usual. Moreover, the schnitzel is rather small and the coating does not look right. Sorry, Hayford :-) (This shows that I was right (see above) to say that we need articles on the true one, and one on all the others ... --Peter Schmitt 20:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) Peter different folks eat food in different ways. Most, if not all, the schnitzels I made were not large. Although after looking through numerous Wikimedia Commons photos I discovered the schnitzels came in all sizes. I don't eat schnitzel much any more as it gives me heartburn. When I do eat schnitzel, it is Jager Schnitzel, which I love, with spatzle. Some people like it with egg noodles or potatoes. All a matter of taste. Mary Ash 20:32, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

That is just the reason why it is necessary to agree on the topic of this page. Is it on dishes internationally called schnitzel, or is it about a Wiener schnitzel (international), or a Wiener Schnitzel (the Vienna version that gives it its name)? --Peter Schmitt 20:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Kaiser Basileios

No one in the 9th century was called a "Kaiser". Also, the story itself sounds nonsensical -- it definitely needs a footnote authenticating this assertion. Hayford Peirce 20:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

About what are you talking, Hayford? It seems I am missing something. --Peter Schmitt 20:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

About this statement: "Kaiser Basileios (867 to 886 AD) liked eating his meat covered in gold which eventually lead to cutlets being cooked in bread crumbs. The bread crumbs were substituted to represent the gold leaf covered meat as a cost saving measure." Are you telling me that a byzantine emperor was called "Kaiser"? And that he ate his schnitel covered in gold? If so, please give me a reputable source for this statement. Hayford Peirce 20:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not telling you anything. I never saw this statement (on this page). But it is told on German Food Guide and probably elsewhere. It is a legend like the Radetzky story. But there is more research needed before reasonable statements can be made. --Peter Schmitt 20:50, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

For your reference: The German is here: Basileios II. der Bulgarentöter (griechisch Basíleios Bulgaroktónos Βασίλειος ὁ Βουλγαροκτόνος, bulg. Василий българоубиец/Wasilij Bulgaroubiez; * 958 in Didymoticho; † 15. Dezember 1025 in Konstantinopel) war von 976 bis 1025 Kaiser des Byzantinischen Reiches. Seine Regierungszeit gilt allgemein als ein Glanzpunkt der byzantinischen Geschichte.

Inhaltsverzeichnis [Verbergen]

   * 1 Leben
         o 1.1 Die frühen Jahre
         o 1.2 Kämpfe gegen Bulgaren und Behauptung im Osten
   * 2 Bewertung
   * 3 Anmerkungen
   * 4 Quelle
   * 5 Literatur
   * 6 Weblinks

Leben [Bearbeiten]

Or translated: Basil II of the Bulgarians slayer (Greek Basil Bulgaroktonos Βασίλειος ὁ Βουλγαροκτόνος, Bulgarian Василий българоубиец / Vasily Bulgaroubiez, * 958 in Didymotiho; † December 15, 1025 in Constantinople) 976-1025 emperor of the Byzantine Empire. His reign is generally considered a high point of Byzantine history. Contents [Hide]

   * 1 Life
         o 1.1 The early years
         O 1.2 fights against Bulgarians and contention in the East

Which refers to the Byzantine emperor as a Kaiser in German. Hubby dearest, who loves Byzantine history is not here as he's out on an errand, but I'm sure he would agree with the terminology. I also found numerous independent sources all stating similar tales.

OR

Krieg und Kriegführung in Byzanz: Die Kriege Kaiser Basileios II. gegen die Bulgaren (976-1019) [Gebundene Ausgabe] Paul Meinrad Strässle (Autor) Noch keine Kundenrezensionen vorhanden: Schreiben Sie die erste! Preis: EUR 119,00 kostenlose Lieferung. Siehe Details.

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o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o Auf Lager. Verkauf und Versand durch Amazon.de. Geschenkverpackung verfügbar.

It seems the German translation would include the term Kaiser. Kaiser means emperor and Baileios proves this out as he was Byznatine emperor or Kaiser.Mary Ash 20:53, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

And for more references:

"Wiener" means Viennese (from Vienna) in German. As the name suggests, the Austrians are accredited with the creation of the Wiener Schnitzel. The Wiener Schnitzel was perfected by the Austrians to become the delicious dish known today by every German and found in most German restaurants. However, the origin of the Schnitzel actually goes back to the 7th century Byzantine Empire.

The story goes that the Kaiser Basileios I (867-886AD) prefered his meat covered with sheets of gold. And what he liked soon became popular with the wealthy. But, this practice became too expensive, so an alternative was created - "yellow gold" (bread crumbs).

Over the years, the use of bread crumbs in coating meat spread to neighboring lands. It was in Milan, Italy, in the 1800's where the Austrian Joseph Graf Radetzky discovered a dish called "Costoletta alla Milanese" - a thick veal cutlet, coated with bread crumbs, and sauteed in butter. Radetzky, who was commander over the Austrian troops in Italy (1831 to 1857), reported military, political, and even culinary information back to the Austrian Kaiser.

We are up to several INDEPENDENT references stating the history of the schnitzel. Three of those references include the term Kaiser and reflect back to the Byzantine Empire. The schnitzel evolved from gold leaf covered meat to the more affordable golden bread crumb crust for the masses to enjoy. I'm sorry but that's what the research says which was correctly referenced in my article. I welcome Peter to do research as he is closer to the source than I am. It's always easier to get information when it's near you. I'd love to read what he finds out. Mary Ash 21:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

"revert wars"

Mary, we do NOT have revert wars at CZ. I removed that statement once, and wrote about it on the Talk page. You have restored it without attribution or discussion. I am now removing it again, and if you put it back I will call for a Constable to examine your behavior. Hayford Peirce 20:35, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

There were numerous sources all stating similar things. Did you check the sources listed? Also, I have included an explanation on the talk page for you to read. Please read and check the sources before making unfounded claims. As to the constable go call him/her as I suspect they will find YOUR actions were not within Citizendium guidelines while mine were. Check your research please. Mary Ash 20:55, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Mary, Hayford is a Constable, who has recused himself because he is also an Author on this article. Might I suggest he has more relevant CZ experience than you do, and your counterchallenge is not constructive?

When someone questions the sourcing of one of my statements, it is my obligation to respond with the relevant source, perhaps even putting that source on the questioned article. We aren't as insistent as WP on sourcing everything, especially when the author is demonstrably an expert in the subject. Nevertheless, saying "numerous sources" isn't much more specific than saying "Google it."

Unfortunately, my personal expert in Byzantine history is more concerned, at the moment, with rendering safe improvised explosive devices in Afghanistan; it will take weeks to get a reply.

I am really, really trying to be supportive in explaining our customs, so there is less conflict. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:14, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

To both Mary and Peter

If you are putting in legendary stories translated from other languages then you MUST provide references AT THAT POINT IN THE TEXT, ie, by putting in a footnote at the exact place that you make the assertion. Not just in some vague reference somewhere else.

As for Kaiser, in an article about Ancient Rome, would you refer to "Kaiser Caesar Augustus" because you were reading a source that was written in German. No, you would call him "Emperor".

As for reverting, I made a deletion of a very questionable item that had no clearly identified sources and I said why I was deleting it. You then instantly restored it without attribution or any discussion on the Talk page. This is what we call "revert wars" and, as you should know from your very first day here when you were involved with the UFO article, we do not permit them.

If you want to restore this item, then reword it so that it reads something like, "A charming, but improbable story relates that the Emperor so-and-so of Byzantine is said to have etc. etc.<Ref)put in here your sources, and tell us if they are in German, or what</Ref>." If you don't do it more or less like that, then you are simply putting in fairy tales.... Hayford Peirce 21:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Hayford I haven't a clue about what you are trying to communicate. I have not reverted anything concerning the article after you started making edits to it. I did add two words: famous recipe. As this is a wiki, anyone at anytime, can add to an article. I could even remove text, if so desired as long as I stated what I removed on the talk page. I did not remove any text but I ADDED to it. Also, the "charming fable" as you call it was backed up with RESEARCH done in both German and English. I wrote a good article which you have proceeded to discount my numerous independent sources. I listed them correctly in the reference section. I also added sources to the exlinks this morning that were not used in the article but support what was written. So go check the sources again including the exlinks. You might learn something. BTW this is a good article, especially since Matt kindly shared a reference tool to create the ref links needed. At least he's trying to help me. How about you? I have contacted an constable for assistance based on your repeated harassment. Mary Ash 21:15, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Hayford, you seem to believe that I defended this statement. That is not true. I asked (because I never saw a statement involving a Kaiser Basileios on this page). I did not look at the history and thus did not know about it. After you inserted the statement I commented on it. It was not invented by Mary and that there are several places where it can be found and referenced to. This did not imply that I believe it, and I did not ask you to include it once more. On the contrary, I called it a legend. While researching the other legend (Radetzky) I learnt to my surprise that even the commonly claimed Italian origin is probably not true. On the same time I read the gold legend (before it appeared here). Thus I already knew that it is highly improbable that it has a true kernel.

To write a section about the true history of the Wiener schnitzel needs more research.

Having said this, since both stories (in particular, the Radetzky one) are frequently told the best solution would be to include them both, clearly identified as legends, to be supplemented later by facts. --Peter Schmitt 22:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that the "revert" happened unintentionally, just as the "random" material removed from this talk page by Matt.

Mary, do not read this as accusation, only as advice: You should look at the page after saving. Sometimes edits go wrong because one looses orientation -- in particular, if the material is much too large for the edit window (material that was pasted or cut without being noticed) or in case of edit conflicts. --Peter Schmitt 22:26, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The Missed References

Hayward did not check the TWO independent references concerning his "fable". Below are the references I gave concerning the Kaiser and the history of the schnitzel. Straight from my original article:

References

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 German Food Guide - Schnitzel.
  2. ↑ 2.0 2.1 Google Translate.
  3. ↑ Gary, Joy; Schuler, Elizabeth (1983). German cookery. New York: Crown Publishers. ISBN 0-517-50663-7. 
  4. ↑ Wason, Betty (1967). German cookery. New York: Doubleday and Company. ISBN None. 
  5. ↑ Sheraton, Mimi (1965). The German cookbook; a complete guide to mastering authentic German cooking. New York: Random House. ISBN 0-394-40138-7. 
  6. ↑ Becker, Marion Rombauer; Rombauer, Irma von Starkloff (1975). Joy of cooking. Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill. ISBN 0-02-604570-2.

Retrieved from "http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Schnitzel" Categories: CZ Live | Food Science Workgroup | All Content | Food Science Content Hidden category: Food Science tag

OR the comparisons from the original article to the one Hayford edited:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Schnitzel&diff=100699057&oldid=100698635

Schnitzel From Citizendium, the Citizens' Compendium (Difference between revisions) Jump to: navigation, search Revision as of 04:12, 8 August 2010 (edit) Mary Ash (Talk | contribs)

The references were there why weren't they checked before accusing me of poor research. Mary Ash 21:23, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Constable Comment

I see four authors working together on an article and there seems to be some question about a sentence about a Kaiser without an inline reference. Mary, if you have one, just place it inline. Please, everyone, be patient with each other. This looks like an article that is turning out well. Please don't type in all caps as that seems to be yelling. If you are yelling, perhaps we should step away for a little while. You are all good people and are quite capable of working together. Rhetoric about CZ custom really isn't helpful as customs change depending on who you are working with. You all should find a way to work with each other if you want to work on similar articles. Otherwise, the wiki has unlimited space and we need many, many articles.

I'll keep an eye here, but I get the feeling you can work it out. D. Matt Innis 21:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Marching crumbs

"...bread crumbs spread through Europe..."

Why can I not get rid of the image of a long line of ants, each bearing one crumb? Howard C. Berkowitz 22:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Reverted back to Milt's last good edits while incorporating other edits

I reverted the article back to Milt's version and to the best of my ability incorporated everything back into the article. If I missed an edit feel free to add it back. I also bolded could which certain editors missed. The bolded could was removed by Ro. If anyone had taken the time to read the article and checked my multiple independent sources my afternoon would not have been wasted trying to put back together an article. I now have to feed the cat. Please read and check what I've written before jumping to conclusions. Or at least do a bit of research. Case-in-point was the term Kaiser. Kaiser is German for emperor. The term could have been used anytime during German history including the history reference I used. I have now clarified the term so anyone will understand what Kaiser meant. I guess I should have been clearer but I thought the Citizendium reading audience could understand it. In the future, I will make my writing abundantly clear.Mary Ash 23:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Ro

The article was pretty well proofed and copy ready but it spent the afternoon getting the editorial royal treatment. I ended up rewriting it and trying to incorporate everyone's edits so I may have missed a few things. I'm glad you caught the accent marks on saute. If you could fix the references so they are all numbered correctly I sure would appreciate it. I'd do it but I have to do housework. I spent most the day trying to work on this simple no-brainer article. Sigh....Mary Ash 23:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Nada. The refs should be okay as they are self-numbering - as long as you've put the right ones. I'm puzzled, though, by au natur, since the correct French would be à la nature, but you already have the usual term au naturel - perhaps it's a Franco-German corruption. Ro Thorpe 23:38, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Added Photos

I sure don't remember seeing those photos but thanks for adding them back Peter. Mary Ash 23:27, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Sauce with schnitzel

A breaded schnitzel should never be served with a sauce -- what is the use of a crispy coating when it gets wet? Sauce (or Sosse or Tunke) with a Wiener schnitzel (breaded) is only served in northern Germany where they do not know better ... --Peter Schmitt 00:05, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

So there goes the Jaeger Schnitzel??? I happened to like this dish with spatzle.Mary Ash 00:26, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

You can order it in Austria, too. But it will be served without a breaded coating. --Peter Schmitt 00:28, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm tired. I wonder why. I've always eaten Jager Schnitzel without breading. I do agree with you as the breading would be a soggy mess. BTW did i translate Kaiser to Emperor correctly. I've run the word through several translators and they all came up with the same answer. See below:

I checked the word using the above translators. Thanks!Mary Ash 01:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

one last question about Kaisers

I see that "An often told legend about its origin says Kaiser (German for emperor) Basileios (867–886 AD) liked eating his meat covered in gold" is back in the text, modified, of course, and with footnotes.

But, here is my question: Basileios was, apparently, a 9th-century Byzantine emperor. I'm *pretty* certain that he, and his court, did not speak German. So why is an article, in English, about this character calling him a "Kaiser", even if the sources of the gold-eating story were originally written in German?

(And, yes, yes, yes, I realize that "Kaiser" is the German word for Emperor, the same way that "Tsar" is the Russian word for Emperor.)

Let me put it another way: Napoleon Bonaparte at one stage of his career was formally called "Emperor" -- let's postulate that a German book about him calls him a "Kaiser". Is that a reason for us, writing in English at Citizendium, to refer to "Kaiser Napoleon" in our article about him?

If you can say honestly "Yes" to that, I will then never raise another objection to the use of "Kaiser Basileios" in this article.

I will also resign from the Constabulary, effective immediately, and also withdraw completely from Citizendium, hoping that somewhere I will find a wiki where both scholarship and common sense are respected. Hayford Peirce 01:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm quite embarrassed, Hayford. I think it's a case of not seeing the wood for the trees. And there are a lot of trees. Ro Thorpe 01:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Ro, I'm not sure what you have in mind, but I'm seeing antagonistic responses to what I'd consider ordinary give-and-take in the context of improving an article. To me, that's acceptance of a newbie. I know I'm working with several other new people and the focus is the content of their contributions, not personalities.

In the context of both royalty and food, someone once suggested that the heir to a Tsar should be a Tsardine. Howard C. Berkowitz 01:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I am seeing the same antagonistic responses, but I should also have noticed the Byzantine Kaiser. Ro Thorpe 02:26, 9 August 2010 (UTC)