Talk:Northern Ireland

Any objections to me re-writing the current lead, which reads: Northern Ireland is a region in the British Isles, north from the Republic of Ireland and west from England. It is currently occupied by the United Kingdom... to something less controversial - "occupied by" is a view of one part of the community there. And NI is actually west of Scotland :P Anton Sweeney 13:16, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

good idea. Richard Jensen 13:43, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Claiming Irish citizenship

Recently a statistic has been added to the lead of this article which I haven't been able, on a quick search, to corroborate. It states that "around 40% of the population [of Northern Ireland] claim" Irish citizenship. As far as I'm led to believe, an application has to be made to the government of the Republic of Ireland in order to claim citizenship thereof. In the case of citizens of Northern Ireland, I believe this is usually granted. Obtaining a passport from the RoI would presumably indicate approval of Irish citizenship. However, many people who regard themselves as British first or equally British and Irish will apply for Irish passports simply due to how easy they are to obtain when it is necessary to travel. Many of these people also have British passports. The claim that 40% of the population has done this, if true (and if this is perhaps the measurement which led to the statistic of 40%), might appear to indicate a preference given the context of the lead - something we cannot assume.

The statistic itself seems to be at odds with the most recent publication of the Life and Times Survey, which suggests that those people of Northern Ireland who consider themselves to be Irish (and that is a very subjective noun or adjective - see my note on this below) as an exclusive preference is somewhat short of 40%, standing at only 18%. Combining this with the next strongest preference, "More Irish than British", we reach 35% - still short of the 40% figure in the article.

A note on the subjective nature of the noun or adjective, "Irish". By virtue of the fact that my ancestors come from Ireland, I regard myself as Irish. The fact is, however, that "Irish" is also the description of a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. I do not consider myself a citizen of that country: in that specific context, I am not "Irish". Many people of a similar ideology as myself would freely describe themselves as Irish in a given context and may well apply for an Irish passport. This act does not necessarily mean that they consider themselves necessarily as "Irish" in terms of nationality, or that they consider themselves as "Irish" above their consideration that they are British citizens. A stark statistic of "40%" quoted in the context of the current version of this article might suggest that 40% of the people of Northern Ireland consider themselves to be Irish citizens (citizens of the Republic of Ireland) above any other consideration. This is the reason why I believe the figure should be sourced and put into proper context in the article.

I also think that suggesting that "Protestants are British" and "Catholics are Irish" is oversimplifying the situation. It may be a trend, but it is only a very loose one, open to change over the years. For example, in the same survey results, the figures suggest that less than half of Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland feel they are exclusively "Irish" (again, a subjective thing), while only 35% of Protestants in Northern Ireland feel they are exclusively British. Less than two in five people in Northern Ireland seem to consider themselves exclusively one or the other. To put it another way, a majority of people (between 58% - 62%) consider themselves to be of some mixture in relation to the given nouns or adjectives. --Mal McKee 04:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

If I remember, I think you must apply for an Irish passport (a longer form perhaps), but Irish citizenship is actually a birthright. The Irish republic used to keep a claim on all of Ulster (ie Northern Ireland), but now the focus is just on citizenship, and is more of an flexible matter. A NI citizen can also apply to have either Irish of British 'citizenship' removed. People can actually hold two passports (and have two identities) - but this is a bit complicated for the lead, perhaps - for me at the moment, at least.

I've re written parts, anyway - my main intent was only really to remove (effectively replace) the Troubles-based language still in the Introduction, which was originally written by someone who felt that NI was 'occupied territory'. This article had a horrible start in encyclopedic terms - it needed a new positive/cultural approach. This article could be better much better than the Wikipedia attempt, which is politically obsessed itself, and they have a lot of NI culture hidden in their mixed 'Ireland' article (as a whole island, alongside an Irish state). The separate Ireland state/island with NI structure of Citizendium is far more logical, de-politicised and stable. --Matt Lewis 17:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

As far as I remember, any claim of 'birthright' to citizenship of the Republic of Ireland for citizens of Northern Ireland has to be manifestly claimed. I'm sure the correct legal status in that regard can be fleshed out on a later date though, which ever is right or wrong.

I've not looked at the article since my last edit, and I'll leave it in your capable hands to improve. I agree with you when you suggest that the Wikipedia article is too heavily politicised: yes, the Troubles has played a major part in cultural, and other, impact; no, it shouldn't be ignored. The article about the country itself should concentrate on other aspects though, and a separate article (or articles) should deal more specifically with the Troubles and related cultural and political strife.

Good job in cleaning it up a bit though. --Mal McKee 04:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Establishment of the Assembly

I'm not sure that the Assembly was established by the Belfast Agreement, as stated in the lead. I think it was established by an act of parliament (Northern Ireland Act 1999 or something?). The Belfast Agreement, properly entitled in short form "The Agreement", led to the introduction of that act, which then established the Assembly. --Mal McKee 04:30, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I've changed the language slightly, but an establishment of a power-shared Northern Ireland Assembly, with devolved legislative powers, was written into the Good Friday Agreement. --Matt Lewis 17:40, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but the point I was making was that the Agreement itself was not a binding legal document.. so far as I'm aware. You've probably addressed that point with your edits anyway. :) --Mal McKee 04:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Possible thorny issue?

I was going to change the name of a county listed in this article, but considered that other people may have opinions. Before attempting to change the article in relation to the county in question, and because I am aware of how the issue has led to edit wars on another website, I thought I might describe the problem, as I see it, on this discussion page first.

The issue is that there was never any county called Derry in Ireland. Prior to the re-naming, County Londonderry was County Coleraine. The name County Londonderry has never been renamed since that time. The county is referred to as "Derry" for short. Some people of course, reject the notion of the "London" part due to the existence of a small settlement in the north of the present county, called Doire, before the existence of the London Companies etc. This is for political reasons. Others insist on calling it by its full name because of a polar opposite political ideology.

This is almost identical to the issue surrounding the name of the city (the City of Derry) in that county. In the case of the city, there had been a prior settlement (Doire or "Derry") adjacent to the newly created town of Londonderry. The name of the city has not been changed either. However, the name of the city council has been changed (in the early 1980s?) from Londonderry City Council to Derry City Council.

I think that covers the facts, as neutrally as possible. I'd like to know how to proceed. The BBC has a policy, I think, of mentioning the full name on the first mention in any news story, thereafter leaving it up to the newsreader/announcer. To avoid possible confusion, perhaps there should be a footnote on every article that mentions the name or something..? --Mal McKee 04:58, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I must admit I didn't properly read the whole article with my recent edit - my concern was to change that intro. Now you point this out, I'll go ahead and change Derry to Londonderry. NI is relatively peaceful now, and is a British constituent country, as described by the sovereign state of the United Kingdom. When someone is born in Northern Ireland, he/she is officially cared for by British money as a British citizen, before he/she can become Irish citizens in any official way. The British pay the dustmen, etc. We need to follow the sovereign political line, and needn't worry about anything thorny. We only need that extra line saying that some people prefer 'Derry', briefly explaining why. This is an encyclopedic approach, and if Citizendium insists upon it (rather than polling!) will make them 100 times superior to Wikipedia. The Troubles has an article of its own. --Matt Lewis 17:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I've made it clearer at Ulster that the city of Londonderry is also offically know as Derry, per the a City of Derry council, renamed in the 1980's - but roadsigns in NI still say Londonderry, and both names seem to be official. The county must be Londonderry, though, if we follow sovereignty. --Matt Lewis 18:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Cheers Matt. I should point out to you that although I consider myself unionist in ideology, my intention was, and will continue to be, to present facts as opposed to feelings or sentiment (unless of course, where feelings or sentiments should be presented and sourced!). I try to approach these things from a logical standpoint as best I can. For example, Carrickfergus is often shortened to simply "Carrick". But that's not its full, 'official' name. I'm painfully aware of the possibility of 'offence taken' by facts due to my involvement in conflicts in the other place. I wouldn't expect that to stop the presentation of those facts though, should it be 'offensive' to others, or to my own political sensibilities. In actual fact, I regard the solution used in Wikipedia with regard to this particular matter to lean towards the reasonable, even if the only 'official' use of "Derry" is in "Derry City Council" or any of the private bodies and organisations. --Mal McKee 04:43, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I think theoretically WP has it right on this one - with the two Londonderrys, it makes sense to follow the 'City of Derry' for the city. The problem is over there that others see a problem with it, and I think its been through Arbcom recently too. I know Derry was recently brought into the Ireland 'name changing dispute' by someone who originally refused to budge unless he got a package deal (though I could never quite work out what he really wanted). Other people's frustrations with him (their silly impatience really) ultimately lead to circumstances that brought on about my resignation in fact, in a roundabout way. But that place pretty-much welcomes disruption where nationality is concerned. For me it must be forced into simplicity: - a landmass is only a landmass, each nation should have one main article each (all others are subs of it), and sovereignty rules - with everything else being sensitively explained after it. Compromises like Derry should be happy ones - but even that has caused trouble. If it really caused a stink, I would have to say 'Londonderry (City of Derry)' should be the one, per sovereignty, with the Derry redirect going to it. But fortunately I'm not at Wikipedia any more!--Matt Lewis 05:11, 8 December 2008 (UTC)